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Full text of "Commission meeting[s]"

llARYLAND & T^ARE BOOK ROOM 
UNIVERSITY C'S M\RVLAND UBRAWC 
Q^iLLtGE PARK, T.iD. 



IX> NOT CIRCULAl t 



y-/'' o- /,-■ .^ ■ 

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION , 



COMMISSION MEETING 
Brown Estate 
Port Deposit, Maryland 
October 25, 1966 



VOLUME IX 



yol. -? 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



WILLIAM PRESTON LANE, JR. 
Honorary Chairman 

H. VERNON ENEY 
Chairman 

ROBERT J. MARTINEAU 
Secretary 



E. DALE ADKINS, JR. 

HARRY BARD 

CALHOUN BOND 

ELSBETH LEVY BOTHE 

FR.\NKLLN L. BURDETTE 

RICHARD W. CASE 

HAL C. B. CLAGETT 

CHARLES DELLA 

MRS. MAURICE R FREEDLANDER 

JAMES OC. GENTRY 

JOHN R. HARGROVE 



STANFORD HOFF 
MARTIN D. JENKINS 
CLARENCE W. MILES 
EDWARD T. MILLER 
CHARLES MINDEL 
JOHN W. MITCHELL 
E. PHILLIP SAYRE 
ALFRED L. SCANLAN 
L. MERCER SMITH 
MELVIN J. SYKES 
FURMAN L. TEMPLETON 



WILLIAM C. WALSH 



• «••«•• 



JOHN C. BROOKS 
Executive Director 



KALMAN R. HETTLEMAN 
Assistant to the Executive Director 



William Prescott Allen (Resigned January 5_, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. (Resigned May 13^ 1966) 
Walter R. Haile (Resigned Decemhev 20^ 1966) 
William J. McWilliams (Resigned September 10^ 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. (Resigned August 2^ 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. (Resigned July 12, 1966) 



******** 

700 Mercantile Trust Building 
Baltimore, Maryland 21202 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 
COMMITTEES 



COMMITTEE ON ELECTIVE FRANCHISE 
AND DECLARATION OF RIGHTS 

James O'C. Gentry, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
July 12, 1966) 
Charles Delia 
Leah S. Freedlander 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Stanford Hoff 
John W. Mitchell 
(appointed on November 9, 1966) 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 19 66) 
Lewis D. Asper, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON THE EXECUTIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

E. Dale Adkins , Jr., Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Charles Mindel 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Furman L. Temple ton 

Garrett Power, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 
(served as Chairman until 
July 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

Harry Bard, Chairman 

Charles Delia 

Edward T. Miller 

Charles Mindel 

Alfred L. Scanlan 

John H. Michener, Reporter 

(appointed on September 12, 1966) 



Martin D. Jenkins 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
William C. Walsh 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Alexander Harvey, II 
(served as Reporter until 
September 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

DEPARTMENT 

Robert J. Martineau, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
August 2, 1966) 
Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Clarence W. Miles 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 



12 
Lawrence F. Rodowsky, 



1966) 
Reporter 



Richard W. Case 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 
(served as Chairman until 

September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 
(served as Chairman from 

September 10, 1965 to 

August 2, 19 66) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 
(served until July 12, 1966) 
E. Phillip Sayre 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
L. Mercer Smith 
(served until June 6, 1966 
William C. Walsh 
(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STATE FINANCE 
AND TAXATION 

Richard W. Case, Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Stanford Hoff 

Martin D. Jenkins 

L. Mercer Smith 

Stephen H. Sachs, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON MISCELLANEOUS 
PROVISIONS 

Elsbeth Levy Bothe, Chairman 
Leah S. Freedlander 
James O'C. Gentry 
Furman L. Templeton 
Lewis A. Noonberg, Reporter 
(appointed February 26, 1966) 



Harry Bard 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
Charles Mindel 
(served until June 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON POLITICAL 
SUBDIVISIONS AND LOCAL 
LEGISLATION 

Hal C. B. Clagett, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 

December 2, 1965) 
Franklin L. Burdette 
Leah S. Freedlander 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served as Chairman until 

December 2, 1965) 
L. Mercer Smith 
John B. Howard, Reporter 
(appointed on May 12, 1966) 



E. Dale Adkins , Jr. 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
William Prescott Allen 

(served until January 5, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 

(served from July 12, 1966 to 
December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 

(served until September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 

(served until August 2, 1966) 
Furman L. Templeton 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
John Martin Jones, Jr. 

(served as Reporter until 
February 23, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5,1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 1966 

to December 20, 1966) 
Edward T. Miller 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Frank A. DeCosta, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 22, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STYLE 

Franklin L. Burdette, Chairman 

E. Dale Adkins, Jr. 

Harry Bard 

Richard W. Case 

Martin D. Jenkins 

Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 



Calhoun Bond 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
Hal C. B. Clagett 
(served until June 6, 1966) 



"I 

iH 
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COMMITTEE ON CONVENTION PROCEDURES 

Alfred L. Scanlan, Chairman 
Hal C. B. Clagett 
James O'C. Gentry 
Robert J. Martineau 
Edward T. Miller 
John W. Mitchell 
(appointed on November 9, 1966) 
E. Phillip Sayre 
Eugene Pitrof, Reporter 



Franklin L. Burdette 



(served until June 


6, 


1966) 


Charles Delia 






(served until June 


6, 


1966) 


Stanford Hoff 






(served until June 


e, 


1966) 


Clarence W. Miles 






(served until June 


6, 


1966) 


George L. Russell, 


Jr 




(served until June 


6, 


'l966) 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



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Meeting of the Conetitutional Convention 
Consnission held on Tuesday, October 25, 1966, at 
8:30 a.m., at the Brown Estate, Port Deposit, Maryland. 



PRESENT: 



H. Vernon Eney, Esquire, 

Chairman of the Commission 
Honorable E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Member 
Dr. Harry Bard, Member 
Calhoun Bond, Esquire, Member 
Mrs. Elsbeth Levy Bo the. Member 
Dr. Franklin L. Burdette, Member 
Hal C. B. Clagett, Esquire, Member 
Mr, Charles Delia, Member 

Mrs. Maurice P. (Leah S.) Freedlander, Member 
James 'Conor Gentry, Esquire, Member 
Walter R. Kaile, Esquire, Member 
Stanford Hoff, Esquire, Member 
John B. Howard, Esquire, Member 
Dr. Martin D. Jenkins, Member 
Honorable VJilliam Preston Lane, Jr., Member 
Robert J. Martineau, Esquire, Member 
Edv7ard T. Miller, Esquire, Member 
Charles Mindel, Esquire, Member 
John V7. Mitchell, Esquire, Member 
Mr. E. Phillip Sayre, Member 
Alfred L. Scanlan, Esquire, Member 
Mr. L. Mercer Smith, Member 
Melvin J. Sykes, Esquire, Member 
Dr. Furman L. Templeton, Member 
Honorable VJilliam C. V7alsh, Member 



Reported by: 
N. F. Sv;etland 



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1 ALSO PilESENT: 

p John C. Brooks, Esquire, Executive Director 

Dr. John H. Michener, Research Assistant 
Dr. Clinton Ivan VJinslow, Consultant 
Mrs. Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 

. Stephen H. Sachs, Esquire, Reporter 

William Noonberg, Esquire, Reporter 

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THE CHAIRMAN: Before we resume consideration 

8 of the report of the Committee on Political Subdivisions, 

9 I vx)uld like to make a few coirments to do tv;o things. 
1^ One, to state to the Commission the views which I have 
1^ stated to the Committee and, secondly, to try to bring 
^^ into perspective the statemsnts made yesterday evening 
13 at the close of the meeting because the differences 

I'i among the members of the Committee and the staff and 

15 the other people who have been working in this area are 

16 not great and that is certainly not great in number; 

17 I think there are only really tvo basic differences, 

18 and thirdly, I would like to point out that this 

19 is decision day as far as this report is concerned. 

We cannot, simply cannot refer any matters 
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in principle back to the Committee, whether we are 
right or wrong in the decisions we make today, we simply 
must make them. 

It will not be possible, I am sure, for 
us to take sufficient time to polish up the language 
in the way that maybe we would all like to have it 
depending upon what policy decisions v?e make. But I 
think we can leave the language to the Coroinittee and 
the staff subject to circulation to the Commission by 
mail. The policy decisions can't be postponed any 
longer by the Comnittee and must be decided by the 
Corntiission. It is entirely possible that members of 
the Commission may feol that it is not only difficult 
but almost impossible to make policy decisions on what 
is really rather brief consideration of this subject 
by the Commission as a whole, although the Committee has 
studied it very extensively. However, I think if we 
keep in mind that our task is to present the problem 
and possible solution of the problem to the Convention 
and V7e are not making the final decision, it aiight be 
a little easier for us to arrive at what our recommendatior 



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1 will be. I think unquestionably that regardless of 

2 which of these several approaches the majority of 

3 the Conraission feel v;e should take as a matter of the 

4 recommendations of tho Commission to the Convention, the 

5 opposite approach will certainly be pointed out in the 

6 report if not explicitly as an alternate, certainly very 

7 clearly outlined so that the entire picture will be 

8 presented to the Convention. Let me try to state my own 

9 views and also try to bring into perspective these few 

10 problems on which there is a diversion. 

11 As I indicated at the very outset of our 

12 work, I think the task confronting us in this area is, 

13 if not the most important, one of the most important 
14: problems confronting the Commission and ultimately to 

15 confront the Convention. 

16 In saying that I don*t mean to in any v^ay 

17 minimize the other problems and decisions but I think 

18 this has a greater importance because of the fact that 

19 I it, more than any other facet of our work, is trail- 

20 blazing and we don't know exactly where we're going. 

21 I think all of us are in accord in recognizing that this 



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1 tremendous urbanization and industrialization that is 

2 proceeding at such a rapid pace throughout the country 
5 but is proceeding at a breakneck pace in Maryland is 

4 bound to create problems, I think we would all agree 

5 that we are not wise enough to sit here today and 

6 work out the ultimate solution of all of those problems 

7 in detail. 

8 I think vjhat we can do is to work out a 

9 draft of a Constitution vjhich would give the Legislature 

10 or the county governments or the people of the State 

11 a framsvjork on which to build and a guidepost, if you 

12 want, or a signpost pointing a d3.rection in which V7e 

13 think they should go. It seems to me stating the 

14 obvious to say that there must be evolved in the very 

15 near future some form of government that is different 

16 from our traditional county government, different in 

17 the sense of being more encompassing in a territorial 

18 sense. 

19 Our counties have lines that make no relation 

20 at all, of no relation at all to the economics of the 

21 area, to the population of the area, to the problems of 



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1 the area. They are purely artificial lines. They have 

2 a lot of tradition and a lot of pride and feeling back 

3 of them but they have no relation at all to things such 

4 as sewers and drainage districts and transit and 

5 population problems and so forth. Now, these problems 

6 must be solved and they will be solved. They have to 

7 be solved by governmental units of some kind. 

8 There are several approaches which have 

9 been outlined in the statemonts that you had last evening 

10 and are indicated in the Committee's report and in 

11 the draft, the various drafts that you have had presented 

12 to you. They are quite different in verbiage and 

13 language but basically the approaches diverge in only 
14: these two or three, possibly three areas. These are 

15 first; All, and when I say all, I am talking about the 

16 Comvaittee and the staff and the whole group who are 

17 working, all are agreed on a few fundamontnls . V^iat 

18 are thoy? They are that the Legislature must have the 

19 pov7er to alter county lines, including the pov7er to 

20 abolish counties. Secondly, the Legislature must have 

21 the pov7er to create governmental units, units of local 



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1 government that are not counties but are between the 

2 county level and the state level, that there must be 

3 a means by which counties, and I always include Baltimore 

4 City when I say "counties," can cooperate to achieve 

5 common objectives in the administration of things such 
as sewers and transit and so forth. 

If the counties do not by cooperation 

8 solve their problems at their own level, the matter is 

9 of such importance to the state that the state must 
step in and say "You shall do it this way." Next, and 

1^ I think every one of us is agreed on this, none of us 

12 feels that he is competent to sit do;-m today and work 

13 out a draft of a form of regional government that would 

14 fit all situations that now exist, that are knovm to us, 

15 and certainly would not fit this situation as it may 

16 develop in the future. Finally all of us are agreed 

17 also on the principle that what may be a highly desirable 

18 form of regional government in the Baltimore City area 

19 and the City of Washington, may be most undesirable on 

20 the Eastern Shore, in Western Maryland or Southern Mary lane 
and that it is not necessary that we have complete 



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rigidity and have exactly the same form of governmant, 
in all areas and regions of the State, One area today 
may be in prirae need of some form of regional govern- 
ment and that need may not be felt in another area of 
the State for years, if at all. 

Therefore, we are agreed that the regional 
governments can differ. They need not be complete 
governments. They can be governments that are limited 
in scope, that, for instance, deal only with land 
use, planning, or they deal vjith sewers or deal V7ith 
transit or other specific problems or a combination of 
them. We are all agreed also that if in any one area 
it is desirable to solve on an areawide basis a particular 
problem or group of problems, it should be solved by 
the means of mechanics of one governmental unit, that 
you should not have in an area or overlapping areas a 
sewer authority, a transit authority, a water authority, 
a planning authority and so forth, V/ith those views 
held unanimously, V7here are the differences in the 
approach of the groups that boll down to a very few 
fundamental differences. First, in the area of changing 



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county lines, there is the feeling and a very strong 
feeling that while theoretically it is desirable to give 

5 the complete power to the Legislature, nevertheless, as 
4 a practical matter, looking the political situation, in 

the broad sense that I use that terra, squarely in the 

6 eye, this simply is not feasible and not desirable, 
that county structures are such that the people should 

8 have a voice and that you should not have in the 

9 Legislature the power to alter counties and switch 

10 people from one county to another without some form of 

11 referendum and there are, as you found out yesterday, 

12 differences in views as to how far the referendum, should gd. 

13 £xtend the referendum completely, you give a veto, to 

14 any area of the state to prevent a reshuffling of 

15 county lines by the Legislature. In lesser extent, you 

16 perhaps don't give a veto but you put a brake on it. 

17 So that one major difference is should you have 

18 absolute authority in the Legislature v^hich in theory 

19 is perhaps the ideal way or should you go to the other 

20 extreme and say that it cannot be done except by the 

21 approval of the majority of the voters in all the areas 



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1 affected or do you go somewhere in between. That is one 

2 area, one policy question that I submit to you must 

3 be dec5,ded this morning. The second big area is the 
4: question of regional governments. Now when you see what 

5 points the groups are completely unanimous on, I think 

6 you can see where the differences lie. Now what are 

7 they? That there will be need for regional governments. 

8 There is no question about it. Whether there is a 

9 need in any area there should not be a multiplicity of 

10 governments or authorities, there should be one, that 

11 they need not be uniform throughout the state but may 

12 vary throughout the state and that the people ought to 

13 have the right In any given area to decide their ovm 

14 form of regional government in the same way they can 

15 decide their ov.m foriB of county. Nov; the one approach 

16 is that since we do not know the best form, simply 

17 authorize two things in the Constitution, authorize 

18 intergovernmental in the sense of intrastate governmental | 

19 cooperation among counties. That is one approach. 

20 Authorize it and they v/ill v;ork out the problems but 

21 in addition, give the Legislature the povjer to create 



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1 super counties, regions or whatever you V7ant to cr.ll them. 

2 Simply authorize the Legislature to do it in the future 

3 if the need arises. That is one approach. The other 

4 approach is create in the Constitution the framework, 

5 not the detail, but the framework of a regional 
government and provide that if the Legislature in any 
given area does not call it into being, then either 

8 the governments of the participating counties can call 

9 it into being or the voters in those counties can call 

10 it into being, Nov? this vje have laid open for convenience 

11 the dormant region of government approach. Now in order 

12 to make it effective since you can't authorize the 

13 people to call into being something without at least a 

14 structure, this would mean that you would provide in 

15 the Constitution that the Legislature must divide the 

16 State into regions, alv/ays giving the Le^.islature 

17 control to change the regions whenever they V7ant and 

18 since you can't nuindaraus the Legislature to do something 

19 you would have to provide that if the Legislature 

20 within a certain time does not provide regions, then 

21 here they are. Therefore, the second policy question 



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is going to be, are you going to go down the path of 
pure voluntary activity, create a situation that 
encourages development of cooperative effort among the 
counties plus pov7er in the Legislature to create 
regional governments, not defining v;hat they are and 
keeping in mind when you create the regional government 
you take away from the county whatever power you give 
the regional government, or are you going to go one 
step further and say that here is a form in only very 
broad outline of a regional government; if the Legislature 
does not call it into being the county commissioners 
of the affected counties can or the people of the affected 
area can. 

No one is suggesting the approach that we 
provide in the Constitution to come into being with the 
adoption of the Constitution, regional governments. 
It is either the county approach with the pov7er in the 
Legislature to go further or it is the dormant regional 
government approach. 

Now I think with that explanation, Mr. 
Clagett will then go through the article again, section 



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by section and if you will keep the three drafts in front 




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of you and keep these two points in mind, I think we 




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can make the policy decisions very promptly. Now one 




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other suggestion and this is going to be a seemingly 




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statement that is inconsistent within itself. 




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I don't want us to take a lot of time in 




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working out language because none of these drafts are in 




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precisely the form that they are going to be finally 




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because we don't know V7hat the policy decisions are 




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going to be. 




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At the moment I do not want to discourage 




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suggestions for change. As Mr. Clagett pointed out to 




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me, the Coirtnittee has been working on this language for 




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a year and the very obvious suggestion made yesterday 




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that incorporated belonged in front of city never occurred 




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to anybody. When you see something like that, flag 




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it, but don't get into any long debate. Now, Mr. Clagett, 




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proceed. 




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MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, one of the most 




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interesting aspects of this whole article in the 




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Constitution is that it changes from day to day and 






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1 appreciations expand just as the sun comes up and goes 

2 into the highest point and then settles. Last night 

3 when it settled some new ideas dawned contrary to the 

4 normal working of the pattern and I think we have got 

5 a suggested solution to one aspect of our problem 

6 this morning which will greatly simplify the decision 

7 making responsibility which the Commission has. Let 
,8 me direct your attention now to the Sixth Report and 
9 Page 10 of that report. 

10 Section 11.01 sets forth the units of 

11 local government and subsection (a) defines those 

12 units as consisting of 24 counties, the 23 existing 

13 counties and Baltimore City included as a county. 

14 Then it takes the phrase municipal corporation and 

15 defines it to mean an incorporated city, town , or 

16 village but shall not include Baltimore City or any 

17 county because of just the reason I have said heretofore, 

18 counties and municipal corporations being the tvjo units 

19 of government to b e provided for in this Constitution. 

20 Are there any questions about that? If not, then 

21 moving on into subsection (b) , the General Assembly may 



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provide by law for the creation of counties and other 
civil divisions, and here we include specifically 
provision for regional governments and intergovernmental 
authorities but excluding municipal corporations and 
for methods and procedures of creating, incorporating, 
changing and dissolving counties and other civil divi- 
sions and altering their boundaries. So in the General 
Assembly rests the ultimate authority insofar as 
creation and dissolution or change is concerned. With 
respect to boundaries, we rrake only a limited referendum 
provision and as indicated yesterday, this is a compro- 
mise among many choices and we have tried to adhere to 
the principle of giving to the General Assembly a degree 
of flexibility but at the moment some measure of protec- 
tion insofar as the local subdivisions are concerned. 
We, therefore, impose restrictions only in three 
categories, whether a few counties are being created, 
whether the lines of a county are being altered, consist- 
ing of three counties or less and the third category, 
whether more than the three counties are affected. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second. 

MR. CLAGETT: And provide for a different 

3 referendum in each case. 

4 MR. SCANLAN: Is Mr. Clagett going through 

5 the whole section? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: No, we are going through the 

7 whole of this section and we will come back because 

8 this section raises both of the primary questions in- 

9 volved. 

10 MR. SCANI.AN: Will it be proper to make a 

11 motion about this section later? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: That is it, it would be 

14 proper to make that motion now except I was going to 

15 add that we did take a vote on the first referendum 

16 provision regarding a new county and you will recall 

17 that the vote was that the language or the provision 

18 stay as is and where a nev7 county is being created 

19 V7hich v7ould in fact be the merger of two existing 

20 counties that it would be a majority of the voters vjithin 

21 the new area that would be built into the Constitution. 



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Of course, that does not exclude and I want 
it clearly kept in mind, that does not exclude the 

3 permissive referendum which would be provided for in 

4 the Constitution with respect to any bill. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes. 

MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, I have a question 

first. I understood the Chair to say that all the 
^ people who had been vjorking on this were in agreement 
9 that if there was to be any kind of governmental 

10 authority transcending county lines, it should be the 

11 same authority for all functions that transcended county 

12 lines that might be granted to such a form of government. 

13 It would seem to ma that if that is true, 

14 it is inconsistent to provide for any form of super 

15 county government except the regional government and 

16 that if you provide for intergovernmental authorities 

17 in addition to regional governments, you are doing what 

18 the Chair says nobody wants to do. 

19 Now is this language of the Committee a 

20 considered approach and was the Chair in error in its 

21 statement about the agreement on regional government? 



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THE CHAIRMAN: I think I probably stated 




2 


it a little too broadly and, Hal, you correct me if I 




3 


don't state it more accurately now. I think there is 




4 


general agreement that if in a given area you create an 




5 


authority or regional government to solve a joint 




6 


problem, that you should delegate to that authority all 




7 


other joint problems in that same area but the feeling 




^ 


is that the Legislature should have the authority to 




9 


create a different kind of agency in different areas 




10 


so that you could conceivably have in the Baltimore 




11 


City Metropolitan Area a regional government that 




12 


would exercise a great many powers and authorities and 


1 


13 


over on the Eastern Shore not have any kind of regional 




14 


government at all but have a bi-county or tri-county 




15 


sanitary commission set up by the counties themselves or 




16 


a thing like the metropolitan district of Baltimore 




17 


County that was a separate authority limited to a 




18 


particular area. 




19 


In other words, the idea is not that in 




20 


differing areas you couldn't have some different kinds 




21 


of authorities but in the same area you should not have 






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a multiplicity of authority. Is that about the view, 
Hal? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: I would say that that tends 

4 to clarify it. I would like to add here that where 

5 you deal with subsection (b) and you note that civil 
divisions specifically includes governmental authorities, 
you must then go to 11.02, subsection (d) and there 

8 take into consideration that v^e are providing the 

9 General Assembly may authorize civil divisions other 

10 than counties and municipal corporations to administer 

11 single or multiple purpose functions that transcend local 

12 j boundaries, et cetera. Mow it is the thinking of the 

13 Committee as a whole that you would start out in all 

14 probability with a single purpose function and then that 

15 single purpose function might well be developed into a 

16 multiple purpose function along the lines that Mr. Eney 

17 has just said. 

18 MR. SYKES: My question is, is there anything 

19 in the Committee draft V7hich would prevent the Legislature 

20 from erecting four single purpose function authorities 

21 instead of one multi-purpose authority with or v7ithout 



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1 a background of regional government? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I think he would have to 

3 answer that no. 

^ MR. CLAGETT: I would answer it no but 

5 add behind it that there is classification and where 

6 classification is used properly within the definition 

7 we have given to it not more than five and not less than 

8 three, you have a guidepost or a guide line which would 

9 tend to indicate that it might be the medium of 

10 avoiding the changing or differing boundaries insofar as 

H the function or intergovernmental authority is concerned. 

12 MR. SYKES: My last question is V7hat is 

13 the Committee's view as to the policy question of whether 

14 or not the Legislature should be permitted to use several 

15 single purpose authorities instead of a multi-purpose 

16 authority in a given area or a regional government 
IV which would be in effect a multi-purpose authority? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: The view of the Committee is 

19 that we do not want to restrict the General Assembly. 

20 They vjill have the policy-making responsibility and 

21 ve do not want to mandate one as against the other 



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1 


because the problem may be one that one would be 




2 


applicable and most applicable to rather than the other. 




3 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander. 




4 


MRS, FREEDLANDER: I don't want to disagree 




5 


with ray Chairman but I think there was a difference in 




6 


opinion in regard to proliferation of districts. There 




n 
» 


were some of us who felt we did not want to have more 




8 


districts than we have now, that we either wanted a 




9 


dormant organization that could be used or one that 




10 


could be created but under no circumstances did we want 




11 


a proliferation of authorities and districts. 




12 


THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette. 




13 


DR. BURDETTE: Mr. Chairman, I agree with 




14 


Mrs. Freedlander *s point but I would like to emphasize, 




15 


if I m^y. We have a difference in the Committee. I 




16 


think the Chairman of the Committee reports precisely 




17 


the V7ay the Committee vote came out for flexibility. 




18 


Now I am hesitant but I think I ought to say that over- 




19 


night I am coming around somev7hat to changing my position 




20 


on this m.atter and I should like to say to the Commission 




21 


that I have done so because I have been doing some 






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1 homework from papers that within our own staff with 

2 respect to a study of Prince Georges County. 

3 I must say but I can*t vouch for the accuracy 

4 of the information given to me, I am simply shocked at 

5 a statement regarding Prince Georges County that there 

6 are 115 special purpose authorities of one kind or 

7 another in that county. Now let me tell you v/hy I would 

8 be shocked at that. So far as I know, they are essentially 

9 unrepresentative bodies. As a consequence in this 

10 state it seems to me in the larger counties and as the 

11 future goes to smaller counties, we have begun to 

12 drain away from the representative power of local 

13 government and responsiveness to the people great numbers 

14 of particular purpose activities which I very much fear 

15 vrill simply destroy representative form of government. 

16 Now I have said that in the Committee that 

17 we should leave this matter of flexibility to the 

18 Legislature. One suggestion I should like to make, 

19 I should say to the Chairman of the Committee speaking 

20 quite specifically in 11.10 (b) that I should certainly 

21 like to see the language somewhat amplified as to the 



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1 nature of regional government, at the very least 

2 including the word representative, I am beginning to 

3 lean overnight. I don't change my opinions lightly 

4 but I am leaning to the opinion that we will simply 

5 make a tremendous mistake if we don't do something to 
encourage the Legislature, to point out to the Legislature 
how it can make representative government really 

8 function in this state, 

9 THE CHAIRI4AN: Any other questions as to 

10 this section? Now, this section, as has been indicated, 

11 poses both of the fundamental problems as to v;hich 

12 there is this divergence of views and I suggest that 

13 you look at the other two memoranda because on the one 

14 1 V. issue of providing a dormant regional government 

15 they are the same although they differ in detail. 

16 I am not suggesting that the language of 

17 any one of the three drafts is necessarily the language 

18 you want, but if you will look at the one marked staff 

19 memoranda, you V7ill see that it starts by saying the 

20 units of government shall be regions, counties, and 

21 cities. The other one has the same notation except it 



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1 says that the power of local government other than the 

2 judicial power and that is one of the matters I should 

3 have mentioned. I think all of us are in agreement 

4 that the judicial power should not be vested in local 

5 government. We don't want town or county courts. But 

6 this article says that the power of local government 

7 other than the judicial power is vested in -- and then 

8 there is a whole series of names you can give the 

9 regions, counties and municipal corporations, so that 

10 the difference fundamentally, there is the one says 

11 the power of local government is in regions, counties 

12 and municipalities, the other says the Legislature may 

13 create regions , 

14 Mr. Sykes. 

15 MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, I would like to get the 

16 easier question on the floor first and make the motion 

17 that I indicated I would make yesterday and that is 

18 to move to delete the last paragraph, the second 

19 paragraph of subsection (b) of 11.01. 

20 MR. SCANLAN: I second the motion. 

21 MR. SYKES: My purpose in making the motion 



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1 
2 

3 

4 

5 



8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 



is to propose to the Commission the alternative of 
placing in the Legislature the power to merge and 
change, create, and dissolve counties. I think it 
fits in with the desire to create a strong Legislature 
that is necessary to give the Legislature the tools to 
deal with this most important problem and that to build 
in a parochialism into the Constitution is a big mistake. 
I think this is one situation where you are going to 
have to trust the Legislature because if you don't 
and you attempt to provide for what must be a local 
veto, at least to some extent you are going to make it 
impossible for the state to deal with statewide problems. 

THE CIrlAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe. 

MRS, BOTHE: I wonder if Mr. Sykes would 
be interested in accepting an amendment requiring 
extraordinary vote of the Legislature. 

MR. SYKES: That is a nice question. I am 
not prepared to accept it at this point but it is an 
interesting approach that I hadn't thought about. 

MR. GENTRY: Might I ask a question here. 
By the deletion of this whole paragraph, we would have 



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1 


this whole paragraph, we would have then only the 




^ 


2 


general referendum powers by petition of any, and with 






3 


the required signature and so forth plus the referendum 






4 


that the Legislature would write into the enacting law 






5 


and that referendum which was written in, if one is 






6 


written in would be to the extent granted by the 






7 


Legislature, whether it be separate votes of the county 






8 


or one vote, is that right? 






9 


THE CHAIRMAN: I might say to you in further 






10 


statement that my remark yesterday that I said I thought 






11 


the Legislature had the inherent power to submit an 






12 


act to referendum, I am not certain that is the case. 






13 


But I take it that Mr. Sykes * motion v7ould have the 






14 


effect that you have indicated, that is that there would 




J 


15 


be no referendum except under the general referendum 






16 


provisions or special referendum if the Legislature 






17 


provided one assuming the Constitution authorized it to 






18 


provide one. 






19 


MR. SYKES: There is an article in the 






20 


Maryland law review that talks about the power of the 






21 


Legislature to submit to referendum and I think it 




I 




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1 
2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 



makes a distinction betv/een delegation of a Legislative 
power which the Legislature cannot do and legislating 
upon a county, have an act to take effect upon a 
certain event which the Legislature can do and I forget 
how it- came out. But there is some question, you are 
right, 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 
Mr. Martineau. 

MR. MARTINEAU: I would just like to make 
the point that my experience with referenda matters of 
changing city lines would lead me to believe that it 
would be almost impossible to obtain a favorable vote 
on a transfer of an area from one county to another. 
The reaction of people on a vote like this is one of 
fear of the unknown and that results in a negative vote 
and for that reason I think if the second paragraph was 
left in here, you are pretty effectively canceling out 
the power granted by the first paragraph. 

DR. JENKINS: I will say I am in favor of 
this motion. Theoretically I am concerned with people 
voting on the question. I am convinced that one of the 



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1 


parties as I stated yesterday, the interested parties. 




2 


where a part of a county is concerned is the people in 




3 


it, who are being left and I think it would be virtually 




4 


impossible to get a three layer referendum and there 




5 


could be no change at all, I am in favor of this plus 




6 


the suggestion of Mrs, Bothe of an extraordinary vote 




7 


of the Legislature. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 




9 


DR. JENKINS: Which could be handled by 




10 


later amendment . 




11 


THE CHAIRhLAN: Any further discussion? 




12 


You ready for the questi.on? Mr. Sykes , you want to 




15 


consider further an amendment or do you want to stand 




14 


on your motion? 




.15 


MR, SYKES: I would like to put it this way 




16 


with the understanding that it is subject to further 




17 


amendment, even if the motion passes. 




18 


THE CHAIRMAN: Before we vote, I would 




19 


like to state very briefly my oxm viev7s. I think this 




20 


is a very, very sensitive area and I think we are 




21 


caught on the horns of dilemma of either giving the 






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1 Legislature the power to solve the problem or of 

2 saying that the Legislature can't solve the problem 

3 At the moment I recognize the necessity of protecting 

4 the minority or the smaller counties against what may 

5 be the overpowering desires of the majority. I some- 

6 what hesitantly, but nevertheless without any more 

7 hesitation than I have already indicated would favor 

8 the amendment but I would also favor providing for an 

9 extraordinary vote as the measure of added protection 

you 

10 to the county. Are /ready for the qviestion? 

11 DR. BARD: May I ask a question? Does the 

an 

1*^ motion call for/extraordinary vote? 

13 MR. SYKES: No. 

14 MRS. BOTHE: No, but the measure could do it. 

15 DR. BARD: Could I offer an amendment? 

16 MR. SCANIAN: That will clutter it. Let's 

17 go back to it. 

18 THE CHAIRI'IAN: Ready for the question? 

19 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I think now we 

20 have clearly in focus how the Committee has compromised 

21 this question in the t^s'o provisions or three provisions 



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1 set out in this second paragraph of subjection (b) , 

2 I point out to you that where a new county is being 

3 created and a large county is absorbing a small county 

4 in its entirety it is a vote of all of the people in 

5 the entire consolidated area which does give a degree 

6 of flexibility. When tampering with less than a, 

7 the creation of a new county, the protection provided 

8 for here is for the referendum of that area which is 

9 being moved into a new area. Where you go into more 

10 than three counties the referendum required is a state- 

11 wide referendum similar in effect to the permissive 

12 referendum but it would be mandatory in that situation. 

13 However, where the Legislature undertakes 

14 a clean sweep and does an entire job, then there is 

15 no restriction whatsoever insofar as mandatory 

16 referendum but only for permissive referendum. In 

17 fairness to the hours of discussion 5^nd the many points 

18 of view of different members of the Conaaittee, I feel 

19 I must hold to the recommendation here being an effective 

20 compromise between the two extremes. 

21 MR. SYKES: I would like to close briefly, 



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1 Mr. Chairman, by saying I ara afraid that the compromise 

2 of the Committee is an unfortunate compromise because 

3 it, as was said yesterday, gives some measure of 

4 protection against petty larceny but no protection 

5 against grand larceny and because it discriminates 

6 against what Dr. Jenkins called the deserted wife. 

7 If you are going to give a right of referendum, you 

8 should give it even handedly and fairly to all the 

9 elements affected. It is perhaps precisely because of 

10 that that I suggest this issue is not compromisable but 

11 it is presented in its stark form and we are going to 

12 have to decide whether the Legislature is to be given 

13 the power or is not to be given the pov/er and if the 
1^ Legislature is not to be given the povjer , there is to 

15 be a referendum then that referendum ought to be fairly 

16 and equally given to everybody v7ho is affected by it. 

17 I think that the second alternative is 

18 VTrong and X .-impraD-ticalXly and the only, the position 

19 that we are driven to is the position of the motion. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

21 Are you ready for the question? The question arises 

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1 on the motion to strike the second paragraph of 

2 Section 11.01(b), a vote aye is a vote in favor of 

3 striking that paragraph which leaves the complete power 
4r in the Legislature to alternate counties without any 

6 referendum. 

6 All those in favor, please signify by a 

7 show of hands. Contrary? The motion is carried thirteen 

8 to five. Mr. Scanlan. 

9 MR. SCANLAN: I would like to offer an 

10 amendment and no particular choice of language but it 

11 would refer to Section B, the section immediately 

12 above the one that we have just now deleted. Insert the 

13 appropriate language in providing for the counties and 

14 other civil divisions, et cetera, this would have to 

15 be done by an extraordinary vote, being careful in 

16 selecting the language not to provide for an extraordinary 

17 vote, to be applicable to the second part of the power 

18 granted. That is providing for a method of creating and 

19 so forth- ihat could be done by simple majority. The 

20 other pov7er creating civil government shovild be done 

21 by extraordinary vote. I find myself votiig consistently. 



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1 I voted against sovereignty for the University of 

2 Maryland yesterday and against counties today. It 

3 is an ironic vote. 

4 THE CHAIRmN: May I ask this question of 

5 you. Does your motion go to the creation of regional 
governments as well as changing of counties? 

MR. SCANLAN: Yes, I think the principle 

8 would hold there. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

10 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I second. 

11 . THE CHAIRMAN: Discussion? Mr. Scanlan. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: The Committee labored hard 

13 to compromise with Mr. Sykes, what he calls an uncompromisc,b: 

14 ! situation. I have the feeling that the people of the 

15 areas affected should have some voice. The only voite- 

16 they have is in the representatives of the people. 

17 Again I think it should be a voice entitled to greater 

18 weight than just simple numbers V70uld provide and to 

19 that extent I am \7illing to protect the areas affected 

20 by requiring an extraordinary vote; that it really be 

21 something of a substantial majority of the people of this 

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34 



1 state need and want. If it is that important, if it 

2 is that desirable, I think the vote can be obtained. 

3 If it isn't that pressing, if it isn't that desirable, 

4 if it isn't that necessary then I think the extraordinary 

5 vote will protect against capricious use of this very 

6 awesome power however necessary it may be. 

7 THE CHAIRl-IAN: Mrs. Freedlander. 

8 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Although Mr. Scanlan's 

9 motion is directed toward getting the two-thirds 

10 vote, the extraordinary vote, there is a more basic 

11 pol5.cy question involved in this which you raised in 

12 your presentation and which there was a difference within 

13 the Conmittee and that is v;hether or not we want to 

14 make regional government and intergovernmental authorities 

15 and including, or whether or not we want to take V7hat 

16 the staff memoranda suggested and that is to provide 

17 for a tripartite arrangement of regions, counties and 

18 cities even though the regions may remain dormant until 

19 necessary and which v7ould avoid intergovernmental 

20 authorities and proliferation of them because the region 

21 would be the receptacle into which all extra governmental 



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1 activities would go. That's the basic question; although 

2 your motion is directed to extraordinary, would it be 

3 in order to discuss both or is that a supplementary? 
4: THE CHAIRmN: I think if we hold the 

5 discussion to this one point, we can come to the other 

6 question as a separate matter. Had you finished 

7 your comments? 

8 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. 

9 MR, SYKES: That was the question I vjanted 
to raise. I vjanted to make sure there was nothing 

11 in this vote which was going to tie us up on the 

12 independent consideration of the question of regional 

13 government. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I V70uld think not. Dr. Bard. 

15 DR. BARD: I am concerned about the inclusion 

16 of regional government and intergovernmental authorities 

17 and I can't help but think of the problems that cama 

18 into being when we attempted to organize the Maryland 

19 Port Authority and the Maryland Transit Authority when 

20 one county V7as forecful enough really to have kept it 

21 out if it had actually required a two-thirds majority. 



10 



- -te t--me- a-sk— the— gia4^ r of t he— Gvofe4on— wl^e ther h e w oul d— be — 

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1 willing to just have it embrace creation of counties 

2 and creation of counties really, changing county lines. 

3 MR, SCANLAN: Not apply to regional govern- 

4 ments, VJe will, for the moment, I will accept the motion 

5 because we are coming back to your remarks, Mr. Chairman. 

6 I will accept the amendment > tt is directed 

7 to the creation of counties. 

8 MRS. FREEDLANDER: And altering events. 

9 Just county and county changes. 

10 THE CI1\IRM^N: Senator Hoff , you accepted 

11 the motion, do you accept the change? 

12 MR. HOFF: I didn't accept it. 

13 MR. MINDEL: Suppose we are creating a new 

14 county, creating a county that V70uld require an extra- 

15 ordinary vote. Suppose in the process of doing that 

16 you are dissolving a county and you say you do not 

17 v/ant that to apply to the second part. Where are V7e? 

18 MR, SCANLAN: No, I didn't state that. 

19 THE CnAH^A.N: Let me state the motion. The 

20 motion, as I understand it, that in order to create, 

21 dissolve, or alter the boundaries of counties, an 



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1 extraordinary vote v7ould be required. 

2 DR. JENKINS: The wording is in the 

3 staff memo, creation, changing, dissolution, a wording 
4r rather -- 

5 THE CHAIRM/^N: That's right, except if you 

6 eliminate from Paragraph B of the staff memo, the word 

7 regions and say subject to an extraordinary vote you 

8 would have the principle of the motion -- 

9 Mr . Brooks . 

10 MR. BROOKS: I would hope the Commission 

11 would consider very carefully its use of extraordinary 

12 vote. Personally I am very appalled at the exceedingly 

of 
15 anti-legislature aCtitude/the Coiraiission. It is the 

14 one area V7here there has been no faith really, no 

15 appreciable faith put in the General Assembly. I don't 

16 think an extraordinary vote is a compromise in government 

17 V7hat we have said when you examine thewhole list of 

18 extraordinary votes being required is first, that we 

19 really don't have a great deal of faith in a democratic 

20 process where the majority can make decisions and second, 

21 that in every case where one would expect there to be 

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1 an honest differing of opinions, it should be particularly 

2 difficult to have to reach a decision in the resolution 

3 of the problem. 

4 We can tell by just examining and if you 

5 will think about the legislative process, it works the 

6 same way, examining the votes of this Commission on 

7 issues that are controversial. It is very seldom that 

8 you get a lopsided vote on a controversial issue. This 

9 doesn't occur in the General Assembly either and I think 

10 it is a very serious problem that V7e have provided 

11 extensively for extraordinary votes. 

12 I think it is very unrealistic and it 

13 is just as bad as the second paragraph that vjas 

14 written in here. I think V7e should really seriously 

15 consider v/hether this is any solution to the problem 

16 at all and whether or not we really want to indicate 
IV that we should tie the hand of the Legislature and the 

18 majority of the Legislature in doing whatever v^e think 

19 they should have the authority to do. We have already 

20 provided for on every vote what has proven in the history 

21 of Maryland to be an extraordinary vote. The Maryland 



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1 Legislature requires a constitutional majority which 

2 is in fact an extraordinary vote of a kind. It is very 
5 seldom that all legislatures are present or that there 
4: are not either c^ovoZiVacanties-- i"^> in the legislatures 

5 or some of the members are not out attending to other 

6 affairs in which case, in fact, there is an extraordinary 

7 vote. It requires more than a majority of those present 

8 and the requiring more than would seem to really hamper 

9 the legislative process, 

10 DR. BURDETTE: I should like to say why I 

11 support this motion and perhaps in a direct answer to 

12 Mr. Brooks' position. I have never personally lived 

13 in a state in which there is such diversity of interests 

14 at times in rather small sections. Now I run upon the 

15 assumption that human nature being what it is, people 

16 give more attention to their o^^m immediate interests. 

17 I do not live on the Eastern Shore, for example, and to 

18 me many of the individual problems of local government 

19 on the Eastern Shore are vague and distant. But if, for 

20 instance, the changing of county boundaries upon the 

21 Eastern Shore V70uld discourage the order of government. 



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1 


I should support the viow of an extraordinary majority. 




2 


I, therefore, support this system of extraordinary 




3 


majorities for a state where there is great diversity 




4 


coupled with some under population in some of the key 




5 


areas of that diversity. I do that because I think 




6 


that if we should get the state into an area of bitter- 




4 


ness, not so easily acquired in states in the West, for 






example, where the basic economy is often quite similar, 




9 


I think we have mnde a great mistake. We have this 




10 


problem in Montana where there is bitterness between 




11 


the western mining and eastern grazing. I don*t think 




12 


we ought to get a type of bitterness that runs so 




13 


deep within the roots that might happen v7ithout an 




14 


extraordinary majority. 




15 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett. 




16 


MR. CLAGEIT: Mr. Chairman, I am going to 




17 


vote in opposition to the provision for extraordinary 




18 


majority and V70uld like to explain why. In the compromise 




19 


which has just been voted down thirteen to five providing 




20 


for a referendum, there v;as protection to the area 




21 


directly affected and that was what I was anxious to see 




. 


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1 protected. 

2 As a practical matter I do not think that the 

3 General Assembly would be acting in this field at all 
^ unless there was some demand coming from the particular 

5 area. And when the General Assembly would undertake to 

6 act it would be because of the pressure being brought to 

7 bear upon it from that area. But I am still anxious 

8 to protect those other persons who were of an opposite 

9 view. 
10 Now if you are going to disregard the 
H i insnediate area, then I do not feel that the General 
^2 Assembly should be restricted, and if the General Assembly 
13 I is going to act, then it should be free to act on a 
14: ! majority rather than on an extraordinary, because it 

15 will be acting then in the interests of general 

16 policy throughout the state. And if you are not going 

17 to protect the immediate persons directly affected, 

18 then the over-all public interests should not be res trie tec? 

19 THE CHAIRmN: Any further discussion? 

20 Before the debate closes, I would like to state very 

21 briefly my own views on this. 

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1 First off, I would say that normally I 

2 would agree wholeheartedly with the remarks made by 

3 Mr, Brooks. I think in theory he is absolutely right, 
^ and I think that in most instances in practice that is 
5 the principle that should be followed. I would 
S not follow with him in this case, however, because it 

7 seems to me that the state is just emerging from a 

8 situation V7here to use the hacknied phrase, the Legislature 

9 has been subject to rural domination and it is now 
^^ entering a phase V7here I think it can and V7ill be said 
^1 that the Legislature is subject to urban domination. 
•^2 I don't know that I would say I am afraid 
13 of the tyranny of the majority because I am not. What 
1^ I do fear is that there could be in such a Legislature 

15 br.ij.?5hing aside of purely locnl interents that meant 

16 a great deal and were vital to the people affected 

17 and yet V7ere not really of enorraous importance to the 

18 state as a whole. 

19 I can see that in the area where Legislature 

20 xnay be considering abolishing or changing the boundaries 

21 of counties on the Eastern Shore or in Southern Maryland 

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1 or in Western Maryland where the representation is slim, 

2 that they tend to brush aside the purely local 

5 sentiment and tradition and whatnot. I think where the 

4 state interest is such that it must be paramount that 

5 then the majority must rule. That is why I would favor 

6 this motion providing for an extraordinary vote to 

7 change counties but would not favor such a motion to 

8 limit the power of the Legislature with respect to the 

9 creation of the regional governments. 

10 In the latter case I think the interests 

11 of the state would become paramount. Any further 

12 discussion? Are you ready for the question? The 

13 question arises on the motion to amend Section 11.01 (b) 

14 so as to provide that the creation and incorporation, 

15 changing, merging and dissolution of counties will be 

16 accomplished only by only an extraordinary vote of the 

17 Legislature, the extraordinary vote to be defined later 

18 when we deal with that subject. 

19 Ready for the question? All those in favor 

20 of the motion, that is, in favor of the extraordinary 

21 vote, please signify by a show of hands. Contrary? 



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1 The motion is carried fifteen to three. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I don't want 

3 to beat a dead horse but I do want to bring out the 
4r possibility of a conflict between the action just 

5 taken on no restriction with respect to the forming of 

6 regional governments. It is conceivable, it seems to 

7 me, that three or four counties would have their lines 

8 dissolved and be formed into one or into a region or 

9 district or borough or department or whatever name you 

10 may give to it and in that case you would have the 

11 restriction by reason of the action just taken. 

12 If you don't take that action, you could 

13 conceivably have a situation where you are creating a 

14 regional government and then by reason, without restric- 

15 tion and then by reason of the restriction the 

16 counties wither and die on the vine because of the 

17 built-in restriction here. In my thinking, if we are 

18 going to have counties, then the counties should be an 

19 active viable unit of government. It should not be one 

20 which has its powers drained away into some separate 

21 superimposed entity or let me put it this way, some 



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1 entity superimposed upon it. It should be the transition 

2 into another form of government rather than a separate 

3 and distinct government. 

4: So we have got the possibility here of 

5 rigidity insofar as change cf county lines are concerned 

6 but great freedom insofar as creating a new and distinct 

7 government superimposed upon the county structure. 

8 THE CllMRmN: I would think that the 

9 purport of the last motion and the fact that it was 

10 limited to counties would indicate the intention that 

11 in phrasing what would probably end up as t^-7o sections 

12 that the Legislature's power to create regional 

13 governments by majority vote v;ould be paramount over 

14 the provision with respect to the changing of county 

15 lines requiring an extraordinary vote. 

16 But I don't V7ant to make that assumption. 

17 I think that it would be better if this were stated by 

18 someone in the motion so that we can see if in fact 

19 this is the desire of the Commission. 

20 MR. SVKES: Mr. Chairman, I V70uld think that 

21 it V70uld be better before making -«• I think it should 



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1 be open to make that motion but before making that 

2 motion, I think we should have a clearer picture of the 

3 kind of provision we want as to regional government. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's come back to this 

5 question then later on, 

6 MR, SYKES: I would like to make a motion 
if I may, to raise another of the policy questions in 

8 a limited form, take it step by step. 

9 My position would be that the provision be 

10 amended so as to make clear by appropriate language that 

11 in any given area V7hich is subject to a form of govern- 

12 ment transcending a county that there only be one such 

13 form of governmental unit for no matter how many 

14 governmantal functions to be exercised by supergovernmental 

15 unit in that area. What I have in mind is the chart in 

16 the Committee on economic developments monograph on 

17 improving issue and government which shows in the state 

18 of Minnesota, I believe, one territory which has fourteen 

19 or fifteen, different authorities , intergovernmental 

20 authorities exercising governraental powers in that 

21 I territory. 



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1 That territory is in a particular town which is in a 

2 county and it has one school district and another v/ater 

3 district and another sewage district and it, of course, 

4 has the general state and federal governmsnts and it 

5 creates terrible confusion and overlapping. That is 

6 my position, 

7 THE CE4IRMAN: All right, if I understood 

8 the motion, it is to, in phrasing the provision author iz- 

9 ing the Legislature to create regional governmsnts and 

10 intergovernmental authorities to so phrase it that 

11 there may be only one such authority in any given 

12 area exercising the functions or powers which transcend 

13 county lines, 

14 MR. SYKES: Yes, sir, 

15 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I second and I V70uld like 

16 to speak to it, if I may, 

17 THE CHAIR14AN: All right. 

18 MRS. FREEDIJ!^NDER: I feel thi t the staff 

19 memoranda, (a) and (d) , to some extent cover this. It 

20 needs some polish but it establishes what the unit should 

21 be, and it states unequivocally there should be no others. 



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1 There may be a way of phrasing this into one or two 

2 sections but I think essentially that is what your 

3 intent is, isn't it, Mr. Sykes? 

4 MR. SYKES: No, it is not and the reason 

5 that section (a) and (d) in our staff memo of October 24, 

6 1966, which I think is the one you refer to, goes one 

7 step beyond my motion and it bites off more than I bit 

8 off. That section in the staff memoranda ssys the 

9 only intergovernmental authority that can be created 

10 is a region and I am impressed with the idea that 

11 regions may not be appropriate, regional governments 

12 for some areas of the state and that you might want to 

13 create an ad hoc intergovernmental authority for one 

14: function in some area of the state and just leave it that 

15 way. I think that there is at least a strong argument 

16 that the position of the staff memoranda is too rigid 

17 and rather than bits off that much, I just want to make 

18 clear the principle of ncnproliferation of authorities 

19 and regional governments in a particular territory. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I would like 

21 to follow up Vy'hat just has been said here because you 

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1 will recall I drafted something that carae^ up in the 

2 Committee along that line and it read, the General 

3 Assembly shall have the power to create intergovernmental 
^ authorities to administer single or multiple purpose 

5 functions or services v^hich shall transcend local 

6 boundaries and only one such authority shall be establishec 

7 within a geographic area or region. Then it went on 

8 into providing that the state shall be divided into 

9 no more than five regions but there specifically was an 
10 effort to accomplish what you are suggesting and that 
H is placing a limitation upon the number of single or 

12 multi-purpose authorities but leaving open the single 

13 to grow into the multiple. 

14 THE CliAIRM^N: Mr. Mitchell. 

15 MR. MITCHELL: I have a question. I think 

16 I am very much in favor of Mr. Sykes' motion and the 
1*7 theory behind it but I am concerned about a situation 

18 where one district might be affected or might require 

19 a sanitary^supergovernment or regional government but 

20 it might belong to a larger area V7hich might, all of 

21 which area might be affected by the antipollution problem. 



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1 For example, Prince Georges, Montgomery, and Charles 

2 might fit together in a sanitary district but to have 

3 an effective local regional governmental unit dealing 

4 with the pollution of the Potomac River vould require 

5 all the counties adjacent to it. Now I am wondering if 

6 any thought has been given to that problem in the 

7 thinking of this, or confining it to one geographical 

8 area rather than a function. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Let Mr. Sykes comment on 

10 that, if he wants. 

11 MR, SYKES: My answer to that is that I 

12 view the intergovernmental authorities as stepping 

13 stones and, the problems of these areas as inter-related. 
14: Pollution, which is the example you chose, can't 

15 really be divorced from sev7age and if an area is one, for 

16 the purpose of pollution, then I would think that other 

17 functions within that area can be handled by the 

18 existing framework, that intergovernmental authority 

19 might have two divisions but I can't, and one of them 

20 might deal with the pollution aspect and the other the 

21 sewage aspect and the more limited territory. But I am 



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1 just afraid of the tremendous proliferation that would 

2 occur if you didn't do it that way. 

3 TliE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller. 

4 MR. MILLER: My thoughts were somewhat guided 

5 by what has been sold here. If you limit any area to 

6 bej,ng in one authority nov7 at the present time we have 

7 a Chesapeake Bay Authority which perhaps involves 

8 probably eight or ten counties at least and if you 

9 pass this limitation, important as it is, not to have 

10 a multiplicity, I V70uld gather that that would forbid 

11 any region being set up in any of the counties or you 

12 V7ould have to do away with the Chesapeake Bay Authority. 

13 THE CHAIRM\N: Mrs. Freedlander. 

14 MRS. FREEDLANDER: In Con.mittee we spent 

15 endless hours talking about giving counties, county 

16 home rule and expanding and letting them grow freely 

17 and we also talked about the districts but the prolifera- 

18 tion is not only a problem in and of itself. that it is 

19 to say that numbers of districts is not the only 

20 problem, there is a second problem and that is when 

21 you suggested to Mr. Sykes, ad hoc committees or districts 



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1 you are eliminating the provision of representative 

2 government. What we think of V7hen we talk about a regional 

3 government or Mr. Eney's report that calls it a district 

4 is that these people should be beholden to the citzenry. 

5 Whatever you create or whatever name you 

6 call it, there should be representative governmai t from 
the counties that are within that and this is a very 

8 important aspect so that the people have something to 

9 say. The New York Port Authority is a case in point 

10 where they do what th^ want to do. They establish 

11 the rates, they take whatever action they vjant to do. 

12 They establish the rates, they take whatever action 

13 they v/ant and the people be darsned and this is an 

14 important aspect to this. 

15 MR. SCANLAN: I oppose this motion. I 

16 oppose it because it imposes rigidity in an area where 

17 V7e want flexibility. I agree that from the theoretical 

18 standpoint of sound publ5-c administration it is best to 

19 have a single agency rather than many and the prolifera- 

20 tion should be avoided usually. On the other hand, one 

21 of the geniuses of American government is the politician. 



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1 We can try various ways to solve different 

2 problems. It seems to me that before we tie the 

3 Legislature's hands and say, before you can establish 

4 any type of authority, it has to have, you are going to 

5 establish one regional authority, it has to have all the 
5 povjers of government to be exercised in this territory, 

7 I think you are incorporating into the Constitution a 

8 matter of public administration that shouldn't be 

9 there. Again I would like the Legislature left free to 
io cope with the problems of the future. In their wisdom 

11 hopefully they will not proliferate but if it becomes 

12 necessary to proliferate at least in the early 

13 stages of development of regional government then so be 

14 it. 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: I was too curious to know, 

16 if I understand this motion, it would mean that other 

17 authorities could not be created after the adoption of 

18 a regional form of government for the area involved. It 

19 V70uld not prevent the creation of authorities prior to 

20 the time the regional government was adopted. 

21 MR. SYKES: That is correct. 



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1 MR. HARGROVE: Mr. Sykes , does your 

2 motion preclude two regions from v7orking together 

3 becauoe I think in discussing a situation here where we 

4 virtually say no tv7o regions can cooperate with each 

5 other if there is a consnon problem. Is that the 

6 extent of it? 

7 MR. SYICES: Oh, no, the provision for 

8 intergovernmental cooperation, cooperation betv7een 

9 governmental units, voluntary cooperation would still 

10 apply. 

11 MR, HARGROVE: If that be the case, to 

12 answer Congressman Miller's question, is it conceivable 

13 that all regions affected by a common problem could v7ork 
1^ very closely together on this particular problem vjithout 

15 destroying the structure pretty much of your motion. 

16 MR. SYKES: I think that is true. 

17 THE CHAIRmN: Mr. Hoff. 

18 MR. HOFF: I can't help but agree with 

19 Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Scanlan. This is too limiting, too 

20 confining. It is easy to In^^glne the necessity of creating 

21 a transit authority, let's say, including the District 



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3 



4 

5 
6 

ri 
t 

8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
15 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 



of Columbia and Baltimore City and extending the entire 
length between those two metropolitan areas. But what 
would that have to do with, say, the Potomac River 
pollution authority which vx)uld extend up to Garrett 
County and include the entire area of Western 
Maryland but would have nothing at all to do V7ith the 
City of Baltimore and any area, let's say, between 
Baltimore and Washington. The water authority, sewer 
authority -- water authority may be necessary sometime 
in the future but I can certainly see that the water 
situation in Baltiroore City with its drainage into the 
Susquehanna River and its various ponds and lakes and 
dams is an entirely different thing from the City 
of V7ashington where they get their water from the Potomac 
River. I think the idea is fine but in practice I am 
just afraid it is going to either prevent the effective 
use of regional authorities or create such a monstrous 
regional authority that it will by then encompass the 
whole state. 

THE cmiRmW: Dr. Bard. 

DR. BARD: I would like some clarification 



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1 in respect to the motion. To begin with, as I see it, 

2 what we are attempting to do is to get within a compact 

3 region that we might think of perhaps as a metropolitan 

4 region some unification of purpose and have progress. 

5 Now the last few discussions lead me to 

6 believe that this motion will cut off the opportunity 
to go beyond the compactness if the necessity for a 

8 particular requirement goes beyond that region geographically 

9 I didn't think the motion really maant that. Could I 

10 get a re-reading of the motion? 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is to so phrase 

12 the provision in this section dealing v;ith the creation 

13 of regional governments and intergovernmental authorities 

14 as to provide that there should be not more than one 

15 such regional government or authority exercising functions 

16 of govemraant or pov7ers of government in any one area 

17 at any one time. 

18 DR., BARD: It needs soma refinement. 

19 THE CHAIRmN: Mr. Martineau. 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to suggest an 

21 amendment to that vzhich iwuld enable the Legislature to 



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1 create single purpose authorities which transcend 

2 regions. In other v?ords , they couldn't create one which 

3 would operate solely within a region for the regional 
4: government but they could create an authority which 

5 would operate in two regions. 

6 In other words, the Potomac River problem. 

7 You could have a Potomac River Authority which would 

8 have the authority and control of the water pollution 

9 in the Potomac River and this would necessarily cover 

10 several regions and could not be effectively dealt with 

11 by any one regional governmont. 

12 MR^ SYKES ; I would accept the amendment 

13 gladly. I was getting to the point where the debate 
14: was convincing me that the motion could still be put 

15 but that I would vote against it. I think that this 

16 amendment eliminates a lot of the objection. I am not 

17 sure it eliminates all but there seems to be some kind 

18 of fundamental inconsistency between intergovernmental 

19 authorities and regions at all and maybe you are going 

20 to have to wind up making a choice between them. But 
21. the amendment is a distinct improvement. 



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1 MR. MITCHELL: I will second it. 

2 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Doesn't that mean a 

3 proliferation again? You would have a district over a 

4 region. 

5 MR. MARTINEAU: It is a proliferation but 
it is going to be a narrow one because you will not have 
that many problems that will transcend the regional 

8 problem, the regional government. 

9 MR. SYKES: If you don't do it, you prevent 

10 a problem of government from being solved. 

11 MR, SCANLAN: The amendment in my mind 

12 confirms the lack of v/isdom in the original motion. We 

13 are V7riting a Constitution here, gentlemen, not drafting 

14 a text book on sound public administration and Mr. 

15 Martincau has added a foot note to your fine paragraph 

16 on what should be sound public administration, but I 

17 think we should avoid the rigidity of a text book in 

18 the Constitution. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr.Clagett. 

20 MR. CLAGEIT: I v;ant to completely and 

21 wholeheartedly say amen to just what was said by Mr. 



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1 Scanlan. I tried drafting just what Mr. Sykes has 

2 suggested and abandoned it when I began to run into the 
5 very problems that we have now illustrated where you go 

4 from the provision for transcending county lines and 

5 then you go into regions and you start transcending 

6 the regional lines and so on you go, ad infinitum. 

7 Perfectly frankly, I think V7e are beginning 

8 to get into focus the question of whether or not we 

9 want to provide for regional structural representative 

10 government or not and I think ultimately we are going to 

11 appreciate that the choice is going to be betv^een an 

12 approach along that line or the approach along the line 

13 of the intergovernmental authorities, the provision for 

14 regional government when and if that day should come. 

15 But in the meantime with a degree of elasticity' 

16 insofar as classification is concerned and a degree of 

17 elasticity insofar as 11.02 subsection (d) providing 

18 for the General Assembly to utilize the civil division 

19 and whatever that form shall be as time and circumstance 

20 and problem shall define it; to take care of the problems 

21 that transcend local boundaries and to utilize the degree 



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1 of resourcefulness, to continue to use the degree of 

2 resourcefulness insofar as moving toward something 

3 else as it may be defined in the future with a little 

4 purer appreciation than we can quite see it now. 

5 MR. BROOKS: Unfortunately, there seems to 
(j be two different questions being debated at the moment. 

7 One is whether there should be regional or intergovern- 

8 mental authorities and the other as to whether or not 

9 they should be limited in aspect. The problem of a 

10 proliferation of intergovernrasntal authorities has been 

11 referred to on at least three occasions as a problem of 

12 the future. 

13 Unfortunately, it is a problem of the 

14 present. It is one that we receive numerous complaints 

15 about at the m£>ment, the fact that present existing 

16 intergoverniasntal authorities are not cooperating with 

17 each other and the appointing agents or authorities of 

18 the people who are on the authorities have no control 

19 over the authorities which brings into focus another 

20 problem v/hich is whether or not the authorities should 

21 be in any way representative. Unfortunately, the motion 



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1 on the floor deals with primarily regional, excuse me, 

2 intergovernmental authorities using the term that they 

3 are not really a great number of political problems 

4 inh&rent under tlie raotion that is proposed, in that 

5 as soon as one authority is created for a specific 

6 purpose, you then have the problem of reorganizing 

7 that authority whenever you want to assign to it a 

8 second purpose, in that roost authorities are appointed, 

9 so to speak, specialists or people with particular 

10 interests to deal with^the problem for which the 

11 authorities are created. 

12 When it is assigned, the second function , 

13 you immediately have the problem of whether or not you 

14 want any people on that authority who have some special 

15 competence in the new task assigned to it. So you have 

16 to reorganize the authority. Then you have to repeat that 

17 V7hen you a£?sign it a third function. 

18 Also under the motion as proposed, you also 

19 have the problem that the General Assembly may create 

20 that authority and thus may completely control the 

21 membership of the authority v;ith all the functions 



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assigned to it which is the reason for proposal that 
is in the staff memo that there be rather than an 

3 authority, sons kind of provision for the creation of 

4 some kind of governraontal structure that V70uld be 

5 representative in character and that could create and 

6 set up a smaller government with as few personnel or as 

7 many required to deal vjith the various tasks which 

8 should be dealt with on an intergovernmental basis. 

9 THE CHAIRHAN: Mr. Miller. 

10 MR. MILLI-rT There might be some way of 

11 side-ctepp?*.ng this by the Le^^isl-sture providing for 

12 the creation of commissions independent of regional 

13 authority. For instance, we have a State Pvoads Commission 

14 that is statewide and tends to all the roads. I, for 

15 many years, advocated a State Water Commission on the 

16 same basis of obtaiiiing the water of the Chesapeake Bay 

17 without having to fall back on the government. 

18 Could we have this limitation on regional 

19 governments and at the moment leave the door open so 

20 that the Legislature could appoint a Water Pollution 

21 Commission that would be similar to the State Roads 



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1 Commission and administer that particular problem. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: I think that is exactly V7hat 

3 is meant by the phrase civil division. It does 

4 emit that possibility. In other words, it emits of 

5 that possibility along with any others that may even 

6 be better as time and circumstance may require in the 

7 future. 

8 MR. HARGROVE: I think what we are really 
doing, we are delving into the unknov;n again. I think 

10 we have not dealt with regional governments in the 

11 past but yet we are attempting to anticipate what the 

12 problems v;ill be because V7e operate under a system 

13 today of a lot of proliferation of agencies within 

14 both the local and state government. 

15 I think here is a chance really to let the 

16 Legislature operate. I agree v>7ith Mr. Scanlan 100 per 

17 cent. I think that is their responsibility to determine 

18 in the future just whr.t intergovernment authorities are 

19 needed. V7e don't knov? v;hat will happen 15, 20, or 30 

20 years from now but if v.'a should say only have one such 

21 authority, then what Mr. Brooks has said comes into play 



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1 very seriously, that you keep creating within one authority 

2 a hybrid. You get 10, 15, 16 different authorities into 

3 one. You merely give lip service to the Constitution 

4 but creating chaos in the end. 

5 I think what we really want is regional 

6 inter government agencies and leave it there and let 

7 the Legislature go from there and put our trust in the 

8 Legislature. I think I v7ould be against the motion as 

9 it is amended because it ties up the Legislature in the 

10 future forever. 

11 MR, MITCHELL: Mr. Chairman, I think I see 

12 the need of a regional government and I think an example 

13 would be, if I may again cite my home county of Prince 

14 Georges and Montgomery. We have two bi-county agencies. 

15 I ara sure everybody has heard of them, the V7ash5.ngton 

16 Suburban Sanitary Commission and the Park and Planning 

17 Commission and these, I think these two agencies are 

18 valuable but there is nothing to require any coordination 

19 bet\'7een these two agencies. 

20 I think that in order to require that, 

21 and I think that is becoming more important, it would 



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1 be necessary under the existing framework or that 

2 suggested by Mr. Hargrove to appoint a supercomraission 

3 over the two of them. Now another thing as the popula- 

4 tion of those two counties increases, then their tolerance 

5 increases and there is no direct representation or 

6 we lose the right to vote for the membership of these 

7 two Coraraisions . 

8 I think, I don't like that -- I would like 

9 to have a vote of the members of those Commissions. 

10 I think that points out the need of a regional 

11 government based on experience and what I observe day by 

12 day and yet, I don't think that solves all the problems 

13 so for that reason I think that I am going to vote for 

14 Mr. Martineau's amsndment. 

15 MR. BROOKS: Excuse me. One point of clari- 

16 fication. I think several remarks would indicate that 

17 some are under the assumption that only the General 

18 Assembly can create intergovernmental authorities. 

19 Of course, under this provision, there is no restriction 

20 against the present practice of not only the General 

21 Assembly but all the other governments in the state and 



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1 municipal and county creating intergovernmental 

2 authorities. This is part of the problem. So it is 

3 really not an issue of just leaving it up to the 

4 General Assembly to make some systematic solution out 

5 of the chaos that exists. 

e THE CHAIRmN: Except, of course, that 

7 that is subject to the exercise of the Legislative power 

8 to say no because that section is subject to the 

9 expressed provision that it can be prohibited by general 

10 law. 

11 It seems to ma this debate has highlighted 

12 very well the dilemma that is confronting the Commission 

13 and v/ill ultimately confront the Convention, as I 

14 mentioned earlier. 

15 I think we V70uld all agree that a prolifera- 

16 tion of various authorities in the same area performing 

17 different functions is highly undesirable and I think 

18 we are all also in agreement with the notion that none 

19 of us sitting here today has enough wisdom and forsight 

20 to say that the governxpent of the future should be along 

21 certain lines and no other. 



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1 I would certainly favor a provision that 

2 would give not only the Legislature but the county 

3 governments and the people the right to call into being 

4 a regional government to exercise all these functions. 

5 It seems to me, however, that it is very risky to insert 

6 a provision that ties the hand of the Legislature and 

7 perhaps puts restrictions on its ability to solve the 

8 problems that we are trying to give the authority to 

9 solve. 

10 I ^int out to you also that Mr. Sykes' 

11 motion originally and as amended in accordance V7ith 

12 Mr. Marti.neau's suggestion, makes an assumption v/hich 

13 isn't a valid assumption at the moment and that is that 

14 there will be regions and regional governments created. 

15 There may not be regions. Hence you would have a provi- 

16 sion that v7ould say you couldn't have authorities 

17 created to serve different functions and overlapping 

18 areas and let's say overlapping regions and there may 

19 be no regions to overlap. 

20 It seems to me on balance that this is an 

21 area where V7e V7ill hope and should hope that the 



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1 Legislature will prevent proliferation. Nevertheless 

2 we shouldn't tie their hands. Any further discussion. 

3 Mr. Sykes. 

4 MR. SYKES: I would like to close by saying 

5 I arti convinced the motion is a bad one and I will vote 

6 against it. I think the discussion has, as the Chairman 

7 said, highlighted the fundamental question which is 

8 the relationship between regions and authorities and 

9 that the protection V7hich should be granted against 

10 proliferation V7ill corns in the consideration of the 

11 relationship betv/een regions and authorities and it may 

12 be that that protection would be that V7here there is 

13 a regional government there can be no authority exercising 

14 power within the confines of the region except if the 

15 authority is dealing with the problem that transccndo 

16 the boundaries of tha^t region. But that is another 

17 question for another day. 

18 I am convinced that you can't do it by the 

19 way the motion tried to. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau. 

21 MR. M\RTINEAU: As the proposer of the araendmcr 



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1 to the amendment, I will agree with Mr. Sykes and will 

2 vote against the motion. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? 

4 MR. CLAGETT: I believe we are beginning 

5 to narrow as we pointed out, 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? 

7 DR. BARD: The question. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: The question arises on the 

9 motion to provide in the rewritten provision with 

10 respect to the creation of regional government and 

11 intergovernmental authorities that no more than one 

12 authority shall be given the power to exercise functions 

13 in any one area at any one time. 

14 Ready for the question? All those in favor 

15 of the motion, signify by a show of hands. Contrary? 

16 The motion is unanimously lost. 

17 We still should stick, I think, with this 

18 section and resolve the other policy questions that are 

19 inherent in it. Anyone have any further motions to 

20 make? 

21 MR. BROOKS: For one comment this isn't a 



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1 Webster's, but I think it is a pretty reliable dictionary, 

2 just to call to your attention that definition of city 

3 here is an incorporated municipality; just to suggest 

4 that city in itself is a term that can be used to 

5 mean what we are defining municipal corporation to mean 

6 in the first section so that we can avoid a great deal 

7 of difficulty if V7e use city in lieu of municipal corpora- 

8 tion to represent the subdivisions within a county. 

9 MR. SCAIILAN: How V70uld you define village? 

10 MR. MILLER: The only objection I would have 

11 to that is that we are writing this for the general 

12 public and to the general public , for instance, there 

13 are many cities in this state that call their officials, 

14 town off icla Is and I have an idea that they would .si-uld 

15 consider a city something over ten or 15,000 people 

16 and that is not the right definition apparently, but 

17 I am not sure it v;ouldn't confuse. 

18 THE CHMRmN: Mr. Sykes . 

19 MR. SYKES: I think I will make the next 

20 motion. There is a conflict between the staff memoranda 

21 and the provision of the ComiQittee draft with respect 



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1 to whether intergovernmental authorities may be permitted 

2 in addition to regions, I personally would favor the 

3 Committee draft and permit both types of government. 

4 I don't think a motion is necessary for that but if 

5 we do have both kinds of government in the state, there 

6 has to be some provision, it seems to me, defining the 

7 relationship betv/een them, if the provision for 

8 regional government is to have any sense and if the 

9 proliferation that we all want to avoid is to be avoided. 

10 So I \7ould move that the, that language 

11 be added v/hich in substance would provide that if a 

12 regional governm3nt is activated, that no authority could 

13 be appointed to exercise functions, governmental functions, 

14 within that region unless it is an authority which 

15 exercises functions transcending that region. 

16 JUDGE ADKIIIS: That is what we voted on. 

17 TIIE CHAIRIiAN: It seems to be the same 

18 problem. 

19 MR. SYKES: Oh, no, there is a distinct 

20 difference. The motion dealt with a situation where, 

21 for instance, you might have no regional government and 
two-auth0^r4^ti<^ST-^n-aut4ior-it-y--do.^a44^g-^ith-^^ — 

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1 for sanitation and with eight counties including the 

2 t;-7o for pollution. I agree that it would make no 

3 sense to say that the Legislature couldn't do that. 

4 But then the question is now what is going to be the 

5 nature of the regional government that is to be set 

6 up. Once you set up a regional government, are you 

7 going to permit authorities to operate within the region 

8 so you are going to have a so-called regional government 

9 given transportation authority, for example, and then 

10 in the same region, arc you also going to have the 

11 Legislature appoint an authority relating to another 

12 aspect of government, sewage in two counties and parks 

13 and recreation in three counties, all of which are 

14 governed, supposedly, by a regional government. 

2^5 If you don't, the point of this motion is 

16 that if you dDn't make some provision defining the 

17 relationship between regional government and authorities, 

18 you are going to make, create the possibility that 

19 re<»ional government will actually be a misnomer. I 

20 don't think it is the same question. 

21 THE CHAIRmN: Mr. Sykes, let me point out 



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1 that your discussion is an assumption which is not an 

2 entirely valid one and that is that a regional government 

3 is a complete government. We are talking, the general 

4 debate has indicated that you may be thinking of 

5 regional government that is perhaps more accurately 

6 called an authority because it only exercises one or two 

7 functions. 

8 I thought the debate on the previous question 

9 indicated pretty clearly that the Commission felt that 

10 this V7as the area vjhorc you simply couldn't define. I 

11 think in substance your nK)tion is the same unless you 

12 are going to limit to a case v/here there was a complete 

13 regional government in one area and X suggest to you 

14 that might be awfully difficult. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, may I add to 

16 what you have said there that V7hat you are also doing, 

17 I am afraid, is imposing a degree of restriction upon 

18 action by the General Assembly and may be defining guide 

19 lines which should not be defined at this stage and 

20 should not be imposed upon the General Assembly vjhcn it 

21 does meet and deal with this question. I feel we are 



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1 getting into the area of legislation to try to pinpoint 

2 it at that point. 

3 TIIE CHAIRmN: I don't mean to suggest, 

4: Mr. Sykes, that I would rule your motion out of order. 

5 If you want to put it, I will put it. 

6 MR, SYKES: From the general discussion 

7 it appears to me that the Commission thought it was 

8 induced in the last motion. I don't think so but if 

9 the sentiment would be the same, there is no point to 

10 wasting time by taking it up formally. 

11 MR. MITCHELL: Wasn't that the same point 

12 covered by Mr. Martineau's suggestion? 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Most of us thought it was. 

14 Mr. Sykes thought there is a distinction. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: : Let me see if I understand it. 

16 Your point is that if regional governments are created, 

17 then there should be the restriction imposed that you 

18 should not have the intergovernmental authorities. 

19 MR, SYKES: Dealing with problems solely 

20 vjithln that region. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: Based on the premise that 



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1 being the problem after the creation of the region. 

2 MR. SYKES: That is right, and I thought 

3 when the Chair stated what the general areas of agree- 

4 ment where with everybody working on the problem, among 

5 everybody vjorking on the problem, that it was agreed 

6 that the v;hole point of creating a regional government, 

7 going that far was that all problems within the region 

8 that would be delegated to an agency beyond the county 

9 would be delegated to that regional government. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I did, indeed. 

11 MR, SYKES: And, of course, Mr. Martineau 

12 pointed out that you might have problems transcending 

13 regions and you want to leave the leeway there. But 

14 if that is agreed to, then it seems to me that the 

15 new suggestion that I made would be carry out the agree- 

16 ment and without that suggestion being acted on by the 

17 Commission, the result would be the exact opposite of 

18 what the Chair said all the scholars had agreed upon. 

19 THE CHAIRmN: I didn't mean that all the 

20 scholr.rs h'.d agreed upon but I am merely talking about 

21 the people working here. I think the difference is this. 



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1 I think that all who are wolcing on it agree with the 

2 principle that proliferation was most undesirable and 

3 that if you had one governmental agency or regional 

4 government in a certain area that should suffice. 

5 I don't or did not mean to suggest that all 

6 felt that you should therefore compel that by the 

7 Constitution, that this becomes the area where you have 

8 to either tie strings and run the risk of tying too 

9 many strings or leave it to the Legislature. The end 

10 objective is agreed to by all, I think. Maybe the 

11 simplest way is to put your motion to a vote and see 

12 if the Commission agrees. 

13 MR, SYKES: I will put it. I think it should 

14 be voted on. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Put your motion again, Mr. 

16 Sykes . 

17 MR. SYKES: I V7ill move that Section 11.01 

18 or any appropriate section be amended to provide that if 

19 a regional government is enacted or activated for any 

20 - reason, then no intergovernmental authorites otYeic 

21 than that regional government could operate within that 



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1 region unless the intergovernmental authority was 

2 dealing with a problem that extended beyond the 

3 boundaries of the region. 

^ ■ THE Ca\IRMAN: Is there a second? 

5 DR. BARD: One of the things that concerns 

^ me, Mr. Chairman, is that I think this kind of discussion 

^ could take place better within the frame of reference -- 
Q THE CHAIRM:\N: Excuse me a minute. I was 

conscious of the fact that the record wouldn't show 

^^ anything on this last motion because I made no announce- 

^^ ment;if you would please have the record show that the 

^^ motion failed for lack of second. 

1*5 DR. BARD: Soma of this discussion which 

^^ has taken place, as I v7ould see it, is premature aid 

15 this is one of the reasons why we are in this gray area 

IS of understanding or at least I am within the gray area 

1''' of understanding. Will there be a time when we will 

18 discuss the nature of how we shall set forth the regional 

1^ government in terms of the staff memo or let us say 

the Committee report. V7ill that come somev/herc along 



20 



^^ the line? 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I think right about now is 

2 the appropriate time for any who want to, to move this 

3 question. 

4: DR. BARD: That is why I feel that this 

5 kind of discussion which Mr. Sykes is carrying out could 

6 really have been a little more clearer had we made 

7 that determination first and this is ray difficulty in 

8 even understanding the motives or the purposes. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: I believe you ought to go 

10 a little bit further with the report and then dissolve 

11 that question because, I think, in fully appreciating 

12 the recommendation of the Conxiiittee as against the 

13 alternative, you have got to have appreciation of other 

14 provisions. 

15 DR. BARD: Okay. 

15 KR. CLAGETT: Particularly the power being 

17 granted to the power, the classification being allowable 

18 insofar as the General Assembly is concerned -- 

19 THE CliAlR>iiN: Since we have already been 

20 over those and we can have the bird's eye view, don't 

21 you think we could consider the question then? 



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1 MR. CIAGETT: I think it would take only a 

2 very few minutes to run over those and we would have 

3 them behind us rather than in front of us as we debate 
^ the main issue. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It would take much longer 

6 than a few minutes. I thought the purpose of going 

7 through the whole section yesterday was to give us the 

8 broad vievj and then come back and take it up section by 

9 section. 

10 MR. CTAGETT: I agree with that but it has 

11 been my er.perience that the more times I reviev;ed, the 

12 nore I began to appreciate V7hat I was reviewing and I 

13 think that is possibly true of other members of this 

14 Comniittee. 

15 THE CHAIR^i^^N: We will accept that time is 

16 pressing on us. Does anyone v^ant to move in any form 

17 at all an alternate to the Committee draft as to the 

18 creat5.on of regional government? In other words, the 

19 concept of the Committee draft is that the Legislature 

20 is empowered to create regional governrn3nts . It doesn't 

21 go beyond that. Now you had the other memoranda before 



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1 you. Does anyone wish to move any alternate? 

2 MR. SYKES: I V70uld like some information 

3 from Mr. Brooks or from the Chairman as to the theory 

4 of the difference. So far we have been unanimous along 

5 the line in cutting out restrictions on the legislative 

6 power. 

7 THE CIIAIRMA-N: Let me answer you by saying 

8 that we v^ill give you both because our views are not 

9 exactly the same. I can state my views on this particular 

10 part of the problem very, very briefly. The difference 

11 here is whether you are going to say to the Legislature 

12 you have the authority to create a regional government. 
15 Do so wherever it is necessary and saying 

14 that the Legislature has the authority to create a 

15 regional government V7here necessary, the counties have 

16 the regional government where necessary and if neither 

17 of them act, the people in that area can activate the 

18 regional government. My own feeling is that the problem 

19 is one that is going to require some push on the 

20 Legislature to get it operating in certain areas. I 

21 think the discussion here has indicated that the problem 



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1 is so very, very. difficult that the Legislature is likely 

2 to shy away from it, likely to shy away from the solu- 
5 tion of it and it is bound to be an area where there 

4 is going to be sharp divergencies of opinion. Take, 

5 £)r instance, in my own area, the BaltiiiK^re Metropolitan 
area, you have conflicting views of Baltimore County, 
and Anne Arundel County, Baltimore City, and Howard 

8 County, and perhaps even Harford County as to what should 

9 be done and the pride of the people in not creating some 

10 supergovernraent, the jealousy about giving up any of 

11 their powers. 

12 I am very much afraid that if you just 

13 leave the problem to the Legislature and say create 

14 a regional government and define it, that it won't get 

15 solved. I would prefer to see a situation where v/ithout 

16 attempting to define the regional government today for 

17 that area, \je vzould provide the machinery whereby if the 

18 Legislature didn't solve the problem, you could have the 

19 mayor and City Council of Baltimore and the Baltimore 

20 County Council and the other counties provide jointly 

21 for the creation of a charter board for the Metropolitan 



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1 area of Baltimore and that board could sit down, come 

2 up with a form of government that the people could vote 

3 on and therefore, I think it is just a question of 

4 providing the skeleton that would be a push to the 

5 Legislature. John Brooks ' viev;s are not exactly those 

6 of mine and he can state them better than I can, 

7 MR, BROOKS: Two or three items, I think I 

8 agree with roost of V7hat the Chairman has said -- two 

9 or three additional comments. 

10 First the B sentence now leaving aside the 

11 anendment , the General Assembly may provide for law -- 

12 packs a great deal. IwDuld suggest that it is not 

13 sufficient to say civil divisions including regional 

14 governments in that to say that the General Assembly 

15 may create regional governments without saying more, 

16 just outlines some hope but really doesn't provide the 

17 tools for it. 

18 We generally regard any form of government to be 

19 such a significant part of the constitutional structure 

20 of the over-all governmant that the specifics ought to 

21 in some degree be outlined. 



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1 For instance, how do these regional govern- 

2 ments acquire their powers? In answer to this, in 

3 regard to counties and municipalities, we have additional 

4 sections in our local government article dealing with 

5 this particular question. On the other hand, to say 

6 no more here will mean that local regional governments 

7 probably won*t be able to come into existence. In 

8 addition, there is a real problem, probably in regard to 

9 the existing authorities. The proof elsewhere seems to 

10 be that where there is a multiplicity of authorities, 

11 these authorities consider their interests to be of 

12 such a special character that they themselves are interests 

13 group resisting any kind of regional government. 

14 It is in the very areas of the state, for 

15 instance, where the authorities and the multiplicity 

16 of authorities exist that the need for the regional 

17 government exists. It is not Western Maryland or the 

18 Eastern Shore that is in need of the regional government, 

19 plus it is not these areas that have the authorities. 

20 Rather i: is the Baltimore-Washington area and I didn't 

21 realize until Dr. Burdette mentioned there were over 150 



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1 districts and authorities and special taxing agencies 

2 and revenue collecting agencies over in Prince Georges. 

3 We have counted. 

4 DR. BURDETTE: It is 115. 

5 MR, BROOKS: We knew of some 53 from my ovm 

6 survey that existed in this area already. Now these 

7 groups are special interest groups in that they are 

8 set up to resist anything that V70uld destroy their own 

9 authority. This works against the creation of any kind 

10 of regional governmsnt . So if regional government is a 

11 solution for the multiplicity of these authorities, it 

12 requires additional push as the Chairman said. It 

13 requires really some structure to promote it. So the 

14 idea of the staff memo was to give an outline that would 

15 challenge the efforts, that v7ould channel, excuse me, 

16 the efforts that are now being directed through authorities 

17 in a unified coordinated fashion under a single authority 

18 that would be representative in nature. 

19 On the other hand, the design of this 

20 proposal is not to establish regional governments in the 

21 Constitution, as the Chairman mentioned, but rather to 



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1 create specific regions and to number how many of 

2 these regions there can be because if you leave the 

3 creation of regional governments to the initiation of 
4r the counties themselves, it may well be that you will 

5 get any number of combinations but you might get 12 

6 different regional governments established in the state 

7 and seemingly you V7ould be in the situation of really 

8 needing the interregional governmental authorities that 

9 were discussed a while ago because the regional govern- 

10 ments are set up too nyirrowly;- 

11 So by creating a skeleton that has no meat on it in 

12 which you would outline what are the minimum boundaries 

13 in allowing the flexibility for these boundaries to 

14 be altered by the General Assembly but at least creating 

15 the miniifium boundaries originally to be considered in 

16 the establishment of a regional government, you would 
IV assure that there V7ill not be a dojien small regional 

18 governments but rather V70uld lend an opportunity to have 

19 V7hat v7ould be a significant regional government whenever 

20 one is created. The people could initiate such a 

^^ regional government either personally, through petitions, 



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1 or through the governments which are county governments 

2 that are the component governments of what would be a 

3 region and the people would know in advance who has 

4 to sign such a petition. 

5 If you just start out, even if you 

6 permitted the formation of a regional government by 

7 petition without outlining what the region is, no one 

8 would know v7ho would have to sign a petition. No county 

9 would be included. You could select the number of 

10 counties you desire and get the petitions there. The 

11 same \could apply to the county governments. If they 

12 were to initiate any kind of regional structure, they 

13 would have to have some idea of what counties they would 

14 have to negotiate with to form such a region rather than 

15 just forming it V7ith the party that has the ir?ost common 

16 interest initially in the adjoining county. 

17 In the case of Baltirrore City, it would be 

18 Baltimore County. In the meantime Anne Arundel may 

19 decide to form a regional government with Hov/ard before 

20 Baltimore City and Baltiirare County has had a chance 

21 to discuss with Anne Arundel County the formation of a 



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1 regional government. So you really don't have any 

2 control over the development. 

3 THE CPAIRI^IAN: Mr. Sykes. 

4 MR, SYKES: I find this helpful and I am 

5 hopeful 6f isolating the policy issues on this 
question in the same way the Chairman did on the 
general questions. I take it from the discussion that 

8 one fundamental difference betv^een the two drafts or 

9 two suggestions is v^hether a scheme for regional govern- 

10 raent, at least in bare outline, should be put into the 

11 Constitution. 

12 Another seems to raise the question of 

13 V7hether or not localities acting together should be 

14 able to activate regional governments presumably with 

15 or without the consent of the Legislature. That is 

16 still another question that V70uld be raised. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. 

18 MR. SYKES: And a third question is if 

19 you do put regional governments into the Constitution, 

20 should it be done by the Constitution itself or should 

21 it bo done by schedule or some V7ay that doesn't freeze 



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1 our present conceptions of regions into the Constitution. 

2 Now are there any other questions that, policy 

3 questions that are raised betv/aen the two approaches? 
4r THE CHAIRmN: No, I don*t think there 

5 are any others. I think some of these questions 

6 telescope into one another. I don't think there are 

7 as many as you indicate. As a last one, I think there 

8 is no disagreonent that the determination of what the 

9 region should be is a legislative function. 

10 I don't think anyone has suggest eda that 

11 the various local governments can determine the regions. 

12 I think this is all agreed, this is a legislative function. 

13 There is a difference as to whether they can be called 

14 into being only by the Legislature or called into being 

15 by the local governments concerned, or the people concerned.! 

16 MR. SYKES: I have one other question and 

17 I am through. In the Committee draft, the language is 

18 that the General Assembly can provide for counties and 

19 other civil divisions including regional governments and 

20 intergovernmental authorities. I am afraid that that 

21 language may lead to the assumption that a regional 



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1 government must be just that, a regional government, a 

2 full regional government and that in any event I take 

3 it it is agreed by everyone that a regional government 

4 may be a partial government. 

5 THE CHAinmN: V7ell, this becomes a matter 

6 of nomenclature. I think the Chairman, Mr Clagett, 

7 V7anted to use the word civil division to encompass the 

8 idea of an authority or a regional authority having a 

9 single function or multiple function but less than a 

10 complete function. 

11 MR. BROOKS: There is a difference though 

12 in B in regard to civil divisions insofar as it is 

13 dealing with regional goveriviients and insofar as it is 

14 I dealing with intergovernmsntal authoritier- ,both of vjhich 

15 are lumped together in one little parenthetical state- 

16 ment ,in that the nature of govermwent is such that only 

17 the General Assembly can create the regional government 
16 without saying more in the Constitution. 

19 Government stems from the state v'hich has 

20 all the authority. Whereas the second part of that 

21 clause, intergovernmental authorites, has no such 

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1 restriction that only the General Assembly could 

2 create thera without even saying that local government 

3 can create them, the nature of authorities are such that 

4 under the 5th section on intergovernmental authority, 

5 and then the governmental relations that the subdivisions 

6 under 11.05 would be able to create inter government 

7 authorities. 

8 MR. SYKES: There was one more difference 

9 between the t\'7o drafts, was there not, and that is 

10 whether intergovernmental authorities should be allowed 

11 at all. I didn't find any provision for anything but 

12 regions in the staff memo, is that right? 

13 MR. BROOKS: That's right. 

14 MR. CIAGETT: And a prohibition against 

15 intergovernmental authorities in the staff memo. 

16 MR. BROOKS: V7e found all the materials we 

17 could find and all the consultants ^we discussed this 

18 particular series of problems with thought that the 

19 experiences of the intergovernmental authorities were 

20 altogether unfavorable. 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: I would like to make v;hat may 



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1 be an unorthodox proposal, but in this very complex 

2 field, I think a great deal of time will be lost if we 

3 try to propose from the floor, the Chair and the staff 

4 and the Correnittee have undoubtedly given great considera- 

5 tion to this problem. I think they see it in broader 

6 perspective than any of the rest of us. 

7 I would suggest that the Chair put as pre- 

8 liminary policy questions the three or four major 

9 issues here with the idea that we would then discuss 

10 and debate, debate aid vote on each of those issues but 

11 without leaving it to the floor to put those motions. 

12 It seems to me if the Chair puts the motions having 

13 pretty clear concept of V7hat is involved, we might make 

14 progress a good deal faster than v/aiting for motions from 

15 the floor. 

16 I propose that as a procedure. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: I second the motion. 

18 MR. CIAGETT: That is a dangerous procedure 

19 because you begin to get yourself corcraitted tov7ard an 

20 eventual decision on the basis of a preliminary cho5-ce 

21 and you may place yourself in an embarrassing position 



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1 where you really don't want to be voting on the whole 

2 question, 

3 MR. MARTINEAU: We have never been embarrassed 

4 by that. 

5 MR, CLAGETT: Let me suggest this which 
hasn't been mentioned heretofore. One difference 
between the proposed draft that Mr. Eney has told us 

8 y4sterday to identify with his initials up there at the 

9 top and the staff memorandum is that the staff memorandum 

10 in its Section 11.02 clearly provides for regional 

11 representative governments to be established. Now 

12 that is a particular form of regional government which 

13 is not included in Mr. Eney*s draft where he leaves it 

14 open to the, leaves the choice open of v;hat kind of 

15 regional government shall be created to a later date. 

16 Now I think that you can best appreciate the position 

17 of the Committee when you take a good look at vjhat is 

18 in front of you and ask yourself what isn't and it is 

19 that the Committee has determined upon the approach recom- 

provided 

20 mended in its draft with an alternative approach to be/ 

21 



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1 either in the form of a staff memo or in the form of 

2 the proposed draft by Mr. Eney. 

3 JUDGE ADKINS: The difficulty I have with 

4 Mr. Clagett*s proposal is the fact that each of these 

5 drafts has within them certain policy questions with 

6 which I at least can favor. There is no single draft 

7 that meets all the policy questions that I would like 

8 to see embodied in the draft. 

9 It seems to me the only way we can get at 

10 this is to approach it as we have done in other areas 

11 to find the feeling of the Commission on individual 

12 policy questions without relationship to the draft. 

13 THE CHAiamN: I think we can do this 

14 without running into the morass that Mr. Clagett fears. 

15 Because the remaining policy questions, V7hile they are 

16 not perhaps clearly defined in the language in the 

17 separate drafts, X think a study of them points up the 

18 problems and they could be rather simply stated. I 

19 think the one policy question is whether or not regional 

20 governments shall be permissive, that is shall be 

21 authorized to be created by the Legislature, whether 



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1 the Constitution shall be limited merely to an authoriza- 

2 tion to the Legislature to create regional governments. 

3 Secondly, whether instead of that the Constitution 

4 should provide a skeleton for a regional government to 

5 be called into existence. 

6 The second question -- when needed -- the 

7 second question, it seems to me, is whether the 

8 Legislature may call into existence a regional government 

9 or whether it may be called into existence by the govern- 

10 ments of the parties participating units or popular 

11 election or the Legislature or any one of the three. 

12 The third issue and a very important one is 

13 whether or not regional governments shall be required 

14 by the Constitution to be representative government. 

15 By that I mean governments in V7hich the legislative 

16 I powers are exercised by representatives directly elected 

17 by the people. I think these are the three principal 

18 policy questions that are inherent in this section. 

19 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Isn't there another one, 

20 Mr.Eney, about whether or not any other authority? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, whether any other 



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■ 

authority should be permitted in the governmental 




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authority to be permitted. Aren't they aboit the four 




> 
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problems? 




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MR. CLAGETT: I would say those are the 




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four . 




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THE CHAIRMAN: V7hy couldn't we put up those 




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four and I think if there was a decision on those four, 




8 

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your drafting problems would be greatly minimized. 




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MR, CLAGETT: Yes, sir, I would like to know 




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the order in which V7e are going to put them. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: I don't care. I think 




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logically you have to put the question -- well, I don't 




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care. 




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JUDGE ADKINS: I will make a motion, if the 




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Chairman will entertain it, that we decide the policy 




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question relative to representation in favor of having 




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regional governments representative. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Now let me, is 




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that seconded? 




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MR. SYICES: Second it. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Let ma point out to you 


' •,. 


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1 before you debate that you've got to keep in mind in 

2 consideration of this provision the provision that has 

3 no article in the section yet, the first section 

* recommended by the Committee on Taxation yesterday which 

5 says that no tax shall be imposed by any unit of 

government, state or local, except by elected represen- 
tatives of the people so that if you did not provide 

8 that the regional government had to be represented and 

9 the legislature created one which was not representative, 
^^ then under the other provision, it could not exercise 

^•*- the taxing power. 

^^ JUDGE ADKINS: The proposition is self-evident 

13 and doesn't require much debate, 

1"^ MR. MARTINEAU: I can't say that I agree 

15 with that. It all depends on hov7 you view this regional 

16 government. If a regional government is a complete 

1*7 governraont, I can see the point. If the regional govern- 

18 ment is a great deal less than a complete one, that is 

19 one exercising only one or tv70 powers similar to that 

20 exercised by authority such as sewage and transportation, 
^^ I I see no reason for it to be an elected representative 



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1 government. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: This would clearly indicate 

3 a full and complete government. 

4 MR. M^RTINEAU: If that is what we are 

5 talking about — 

6 MR, HOFF: I vx)uld think that any regional 

7 government regardless of the powers, if it has the 

8 power to impose a tax ought to be representative and 

9 without having a regional government with limitations but 

10 with the power to iinpose the tax on all the people 

11 within that area for whatever purpose it may have been 

12 formed should be, the tax should be levied by the 

13 people who are elected. 

14 I can't see the delegation of power jeven a 

15 limited power v;ould be proper. 

16 MRS. BOTHE: I V7as going to say V7hat Bob 

17 just said, I think we decided this question yesterday. 

18 It is unnecessary to go in it today because implicit in 

19 the decision yesterday was the necessity to elect those 

20 who will oppose the taxes who are, after all, the funda- 

21 mental power of government. 



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1 I think everything else would fall into 

2 line. 

3 - MR. SCANLAN: I think the 14th amendment 
4r and the equal protection clause might come into play 
5 here, If it is truly a government, then it must be 
5 representative in the constitutional sense and I think 

7 any governmental agency exercising the power of taxation 

8 would be classified by the court as a government in the 

9 true sense to V7hich the 14th amendment would be applicable 

10 in requiring one man and one vote. 

11 MR. BROOKS: Ori.ginal government v7ithout 

12 saying it is to be representative is not inherently 

13 required to be representative. The regional governments 

14 being discussed in Detroit, the one that has been 

15 established in Toronto are not in fact representative 

16 governments and are called regional governments . They 

17 are not even based on a proportional representation but 

18 they are m.ade up by having a delegate or two from the 

19 various proponent governments sitting together on this 

20 council which has legislative end executive responsibilities 

21 It is not an inherent requirement they be 



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1 representative but I think a very important consideration 

2 that they be representative in fact and that such a 

3 requirement be specified. 

4 DR. BUPvDETTE: I have seen the study by .: 

5 the University of Illinois makes the point where the 

6 chips are down, unless there is representation in 

7 accordance with the principle -1; Mr. Scanlan is speaking 

8 of, that; the various governments are simply going to be 

9 outvoted. If V7e have regional governments with appointees 
10 who have equal vjeight from small units against large 

1^- units, both in population and in financial strength, 

12 the real fact is that the regional government will not 

13 function. 

14 MR, CLAGETT: I think it is important to 

15 appreciate that what we are really voting on here is 

16 vihether or not the Constitution shall mandate represen- 
IV tative regional government. I do point out that in the 

18 Committee's draft, when you get to that issue and 

19 determine it, the representative principle is not 

20 excluded. What we are doing now, it seems to me, is 

21 debating where the debate should properly be with the 



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1 General Assembly under the Committee's draft and 

2 ai'range of choice or selection. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me make this observation 

4 as to why the draft I had prepared does not expressly 

5 provide for representative government. I would subscribe 

6 wholeheartedly to the view expressed by Dr. Burdette 

7 if we were consideration a regional government only as 

8 a full government. I think anything less than a fully 

9 directly elected representative government in that 

10 situation v;ould not be desirable. 

11 This is an area V7here I fear too much 

12 rigidity in the Constitution and if we think of a 

13 possible regional government as one exercising only "" 

14 one or tv70 functions as for instance the transit function 

15 or the sewer function, it seems to me that it might be 

16 considered desirable for that to be managed by a group 

17 selected by the governing bodies of the component 

18 parts* for instance, again if you have a metropolitan,, 

19 area of Baltimore dealing only with transit and sewers 

20 V7hich are one of the really, or two of the really 

21 vital problems that you might have the governing board 



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1 or body, whatever it might be called, consisting of 

2 representatives elected by the County Council of 

3 Baltimore County and the County Council of Anne Arundel 

4 County and the City Council of Baltimore and that would 

5 not be an elected representative body, 

6 On the other hand, if that body is to have 

7 the power to tax, I think all of our traditions and the 

8 things ingrained in us make us say that it must be a 

9 direct representative government. But I think we have 

10 that in the provision, yes, sir. 

11 I do not feel strongly about it. I simply point 

12 out this is again one of those areas where it is easy 

13 to say it ought to be representative government if you 

14 know exactly v;hat you are talking about but when we 

15 don't know V7hat the future holds, this may be a problem. 

16 MR. MILLER: Might it not be difficult to 

17 get the right people to serve on some of these boards 

18 where they are only part time, i£ they had to run for 

19 an election, you would have a great deal of trouble in 

20 some areas whereas if the County Commissioners or county 

21 governing body would appoint them, they would still be 



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1 represented by the elected people. 

' .fi- 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: I have difficulty in my 

3 thinking here, in view of the Chair's comment, in 

4 distinguishing bet\^een a regional government for a 

5 single or dual or triple purpose and the authority 

6 system which we are now operating under. It seems to 

7 me that if regional government concept has any merit, 

8 is to get away from the authority concept and give the 

9 regional government the authority to impose not only 

10 to legislate but to collect and spend funds. V7here is 

11 this distinction between your concept and the original 

12 government concept. 

13 TlIE CK/vIRMA.N: I have to answer in one 

14 word, shadov7. The difficulty is that I cannot bring 

15 to my mind a concept of anything that would serve the 

16 Baltimore and Washington area short of a complete 

IV government and yet I am quite confident that a man's 

18 ingenuity is such that there can be something that I 

19 can't think of that could be created. I don't think 

20 this necessarily means this is a choice between a 

21 complete regional government which in effect \7ould make 



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1 the county, as Hal put it, die on the vine and the 

2 authority such as we have today. Because the difficulty 

3 is that the authority doesn't have the power to act. 

4 It is an advisory thing. And maybe the authority could 

5 be given enough teeth by the Legislature to be really a, 

6 have enough pov7er and if so, then it goes over the 

7 shadows into this area of the government. It is not 

8 in my mind a clear-cut distinction. 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: You don't draw any distinction 

10 between the power to tax and the power to implement 

11 decision? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, I do draw a distinction. 

13 Put the word effective in quotes. You could not certainly 

14 have a fully effective regional government without the 

15 power to tax. 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: Do we want a fully effective 

17 one? 

18 THE CHAIIimN: I personally do. 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: Then you have to have elected 

20 representatives, don't you? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is true. My 



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1 hesitation is in saying that I can't think of something 

2 in between; somebody else can. 

3 DR. UINSLOW: Isn't it true that the New 

4 York Port Authority is not only regional, it is intra- 

5 state, interstate, and that it does not have power to 

6 tax but that it is effective entirely? 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Again you would have to put 

8 the effective in quotes. There are a lot of people 

9 who say effective to a certain extent but not as 

10 effective as it might be. 

11 MR. MARTINEAU: Going on, commenting on the 

12 effectiveness aspect, this problem has been cured by 

13 the provisions V7hich don't give the authority the power 

14 to tax but which require the local county to impose a 

15 tax to raise the money specified in the budget of the 

16 authority such as with the Sanitary District and the 

17 County Commissioners have to impose a tax in the 

18 amount designated by the authorities. I don't see the 

19 power to tax is necessarily or is necessary to an 

20 effective authority. 

21 MRS. BOTHE: I think we are off the track. 



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The issue is whether the representative government has 
to be mandated in the Constitution, not whether it 
should be or shouldn't be and to have an effective 
regional governmont, of course, you will have to have 
representative governmsnt because you have to have the 
power to tax. We have already dater mined that only 
elected representatives can levy it but why can't we 
leave that to the practicalities that face the Legislature 
when it sets up regional government rather than demand 
it in the Constitution which might cause all kinds of 
unintended results . 

MR, BROOKS: First to answer Judge Adkins 
question, the problem of the primary distinction between 
regional governments and authorities is the taxing pov^or 
power .Although both of them overlap in the area of 
revenue collecting authority, I think the real question 
is what foot are these to get off on in that and though 
a government, meaning it will have executive and 
legislative powers, can be very small. It can be composed 
of four, six, or eight or one hundred representatives. 
The fact is if we want it to have only two powers, say 



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rapid transit and water and sewage, if initially it is 
created as an authority for that purpose and it is 
put together by having representatives of component 
governments V7hen we add the next authority or power to 
that authority or power to that authority, wanting a 
multi-purpose authority, more than likely that authority 
will be added without charging the structure of this 
multi-purpose authority and thus the authority V7ill 
grov7 into multi-purpose authority with perhaps 50 or 
60 different pov7ers and still it will be an authority 
put together the same way. So the real question is 
how will it initially be organized. It is that V'7ay, 
it is likely to continue to exist and if it is to have 
such powers as the authority can have and border on 
having similar pov7ers to regional governments, do we 
in fact think these pov7ers should be vested in people 
v7ho are directly responsive to the people or should it 
be a secondhand government? 

THE CHAIRMAN: The question arises on the 
motion to resolve the policy question as to V7hether 
regional governments should be representative governments 



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in favor of that proposition. So a vote aye is a vote 
in favor of the conctitutional requirement that regional 
governments shall be representative governments. 

DR. JENKINS: Does this mean regional 
governmant v/ith the power to tax? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Would have the power to 
action or not have the power to action. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The vote aye is a vote in 
favor of the constitutional requirement for representative 
government in a regional government. A vote aye is 
a vote in favor of representative government for a 
regional government. All those in favor, please signify 
by a show of hands. Those opposed, raise your hands. 

The motion is carried twelve to seven. 

Let's take a short coffee break. 

(Short recess.) 

THE CHAIRMAN: May we corns to order, please. 
I think probably the next question to be put up, 
policy question is V7hether the Constitution should 
merely authorize the Legislature to create regional 
governments or should go further and provide a skeleton 



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1 framework of regional government which could be 

2 called into being later. 

3 MR. SYKES: May I ask a question on that. 
^ 1 would like to ask the Corumittee if a framev7ork is 

5 put into the Constitution or into the schedule and it 

6 is made perfectly clear that the Legislature has the 

7 final say in that it either may or may not activate 

8 the government provided for in the framework and it may 

9 change the framework to any extent it wants, what is 
the objection, if any, to not providing it in the 

11 Constitution? 

12 THE CRMRMAN: Mr.Clr.gett. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: You are then attempting to 
14: define and place the Legislature in a position whereby 

15 the Constitutional structure,V7hich you have called a 

16 skeleton, it V70uld be restricted and confined to. 

IV I don't think you can draft something that is so loose 

18 that you can say here it is, but you can change it at 

19 will. I think if you provide the skeleton, you are 

20 attempting to define and restrict the General Assembly, 

21 MR, SCANIAN: I want to address a question 



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to Mr. Clagett. I correct in reading both the staff 

2 report and Mr. Eney's proposal as providing skeleton, 

3 one is the skeleton that frightens me and one doesn't 

4 bother me at all. Are they both skeletons? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 

6 MR. SCANLAN: In voting on this, I'm not 

7 choosing between the skeletons. 

8 MR, CLAGETT: You have the skeleton as 

9 opposed to no skeleton, and leaving it to the General 

10 Assembly if the problem does arise. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe. 

12 MRS. BOTHE: I V7as wondering if the Committee 
15 considered in its nonskeletal proposal at least restriet- 

14 ing the number of regional governments that might be 

15 permitted. 

IQ ^ MR. CLAGETT: Yes, and actually we have done 

17 that o-nsofar as classification is concerned as well as 

18 in discussion. Classification is limited to no more 

19 than five, three counties within five. That ties in 

20 with the limitation that we would feel would be applicable 

21 to regional skeletons, no more than five. 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: As I understand it, those 

2 limitations apply to classifications by the Legislature 

3 for the purpose of legislation but not for a restriction 

4 on divisions of regional government. 

5 MR. CLAGETT: True. 

6 MRS, BOTHE: I was concerned about the 

7 remarks John made that if we ended up v/ith 12 or 15 

8 regional governments, we would really be back where V7e 

9 started and I would wonder v/hether a compromise of sorts 

10 couldn't at least be reached by precluding the existence 

11 of more than a certain number of regional governments, 

12 though not setting out which. 

13 MR, CLAGETT: You mean which counties will 

14 be in which government? Yes, I think the Committee is 

15 of the thinking that five would be the proper limitation 

16 and the two proposals leave a degree of choice with 

17 respect to the determination of a boundary line and which 

18 counties shall be included in any one of the regional 

19 governments. I don't think the skeletons so called, 

20 include the bones or all of the bones. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander. 



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1 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, during all 

2 of our deliberations, we had the good fortune to have 

5 present, I don't know if you can call them obvious, but 

4 that is what they ere, from the National Municipal 

5 League and whatever the counterpart is for the 

6 county organization and on many occasions they cautioned 

7 us against allowing such a provision to be included 

8 without a skeleton. Legislatures, no matter whether 

9 they are the old or new variety would not vote in any- 

10 thing else unless they had some kind of skeleton or 

11 provisions for the people doing it or petition and so on. 

12 That was another reason why we are leaving in the 

13 direction of a skeleton of some kind. 

14 MR. CL/vGETT: I believe the time has come 

15 for me to state my position and the Conjnission, and the 

16 position of a majority of the Cortsnittee. Basically 

17 the reason V7hy we have come up V7ith the recommendation 

18 v;hich we have here before you because I think you have 

19 got to have the thinking of the Committee or an aye would 

20 say the majority of the Committee because there has been 

21 a good deal of difference of thought and I don't want to 



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1 restrict any individual member of the Committee in 

2 expressing his or her position contrary to that of the 

3 majority, but it is tha thinking of the Committee that 

4 where you take the four corners of our proposal and you 

5 carefully appreciate it, what V7e have done here is we 

6 have attempted to vitalize the county government, the 

7 local government and the basic unit of the local 

8 government is the county and yet, at the moment, we 

9 have tried to give to the General Assembly a degree of 

10 flexibility so that it can take care of matters which ,. 

11 are truly general public policy throughout the state. 

12 Now, if you are going to activate the 

13 counties and you are going to give them the broad grant 

14 of pov7er which we have given here and if you are going 

15 to give the General Assembly the power of classification 

16 which gives it a degree of flexibility to deal with 

17 regional matters, or matters which transcend county 

18 lines, thus giving them a degree of flexibility from 

19 merely passing general laws which must affect all counties 

20 in terras and affect and say that they can pass general 

21 laws which shall apply to all of the counties within a 



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1 classification, which may be only three counties — 

2 I feel that we have given there, a degree of, we have 

3 given a tool to the General Assembly to deal with the 

4 pocket of urban development which has created such a 

5 problem by reason of the population explosion, particu^ly 

6 insofar as that pocket may be around the Washington 

7 area, Montgomery, Prince Georges, and Hov7ard and where 

8 there may be a similar pocket around BaltiraDre in the 

9 city, the Baltimore County and Howard. Now if we are 

10 going to approach the problem by this method, namely the 

11 broad grant of powers to the counties and the degree of 

12 flexibility insofar as the General Assembly is concerned 

13 but divorcing it from local matters and putting it 

14 up on the level of general public policy, then to come 

15 along and create in bet^^^een those two governments, a 

16 regional government, I think is doing V7hat? It is doing 

17 just the opposite of what the Committee has attempted 

18 to do here, 

19 As you create the skeleton and as you create 

20 a regional government as such, giving it representative 

21 composition, power to tax and so forth, you are going to. 



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1 and each of the proponents of that idea have said you 

2 will draw from the counties and you will draw from the 

3 General Assembly, so you are going to be drawing away 

4 powers that you are giving to the local subdivisions 

5 and giving to the General Assembly. You are creating 
a separate intermediate form of government. 

Now notwithstanding the fact that there is 

8* a pocket where some such solution might be advisable 

9 or might be a good one, nevertheless insofar as the 

10 state as a v/hole is concerned, that is not true. You 

11 don't have the necessity for an intermediate form of 

12 government with all the ramifications that go vzith it. 

13 I don't mean to do other than to point out certain 

14 problems. 

15 We have just gone through a primary election 

16 where the voting machine wasn't capable of carrying all 

17 the names that you go in and vote for. If you create 

18 an intermediate government, you are introducing into the 

19 picture a greater degree of confusion. 

20 You are introducing into the picture the 

21 necessity and the responsibility upon the electorate of 



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1 making the choice of representatives to make up that 

2 intermediate government. You are creating the very 

5 problem we have attempted to eliminate insofar as the 

4 counties and cities are concerned. 

5 Now if we carry this thing to its logical 

6 extent, we are also saying that there will be no inter- 

7 governmental authorities. We have provided in the 

8 recommendation for regional governments if regional 

9 governments should be determined to be in the future the 

10 appropriate form of government but at the moment vze have 

11 provided for intergovernmental authority. 

12 The intergovernm.ental authority <3evice>is one 

13 which could logically grov; in the direction of a 

14 regional if and when the ultimate extension became 

15 the appropriate one. But in the meantime, as vje deal 

16 with the immediate problems, the intermediate government 

17 authority method either are created by the General 

18 Assembly or agreement or compact entered into between 

19 the counties or the cj.vil divisions as we define thera 

20 can adequately deal V7ith the problems. It has been 

21 said that if we don't give the guide lines, we don't give 



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1 the skeleton, it will never be adopted, 

2 Well, isn't that in a sense saying that there 

3 isn't such a need for the skeleton. If it is not going 

4 to come into existence, it means that the need is not 

5 there to bring it into existence because if the need is 

6 there to solve the problem with the General Assembly 

7 having the general policy-making responsibility, the 

8 local governments having the power to act in the ways 

9 in which they can act, it will be brought into focus and 

10 it will be exercised. 

11 But if it is not going to be exercised 

12 merely because of the fact there is no need, then we 

13 should not require and impose that upon the Constitution 

14 at this time. And so, as we approach these various 

15 policy questions, I think you have got to reconcile 

16 or you've got to really decide whether or not we at this 

17 time are going to be a General Assembly or whether we 

18 are going to v/rite a Constitution giving the responsibility 

19 to the General Assembly vjhen and if that time comes. 

20 V/here our Legislative Committee has pleaded for confidence 

21 in the General Assembly similarly I plead for the same 



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1 degree of confidence in that General Assembly to take 

2 care of this problem. There is nothing in the recommen- 

3 dation of the Cornmittee which would prevent the General 

4 Assembly from creating a regional government V7hich shall 

5 be representative in its composition or shall be 

6 something else in its composition. 

7 We don't know -- when that day comes is 

8 one that is so far away we don't know whether it will 

9 ever be necessary because we don't know the full extent 

10 and use of the other media that are inaned ia te ly 

11 available to us insofar as tho intergovernmental relation- 

12 ships or authorities are concerned. 

13 So it is that I view the trend that is 

14 evident so far insofar as our decision upon these polixy 

15 questions as putting the Commission on record as favoring 

16 a structure of government which V7ell roay not be the 

17 proper structure at the time when the real need and not 

18 just the feared need would be there. , 

19 One other point. In sofar as intergovernmental 

20 authorities are concerned, there are only at this time 

21 a total of 126 in the i^vt^^^state and of that 126 only 



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1 28 are ones which are dealing with and truly V7ith inter- 

2 governmental problems transcending local boundaries, 

3 such as the Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission is 

4 the National Capital Park and Planning Commission and 

5 the Baltimore Port Authority and so forth. 

6 The rest of them are nothing more than mere 

7 soil conservation areas or drainage areas or something 

8 of that kind. The 115 that are referred j. to in Prince 

9 Georges County are not truly authorities as such. They 

10 are merely special purpose districts and there is nothing 

11 to stop the County Commissioners from dissolving them 

12 if and when they saw fit to do so. 

13 Similarly, there V70uld be nothing that v^ould 

14 prevent the General Assembly from defining and imposing 

15 the restrictions insofar as the extent and service of the 

16 authorities V7hich it may create is concerned. So I 

17 say once again in conclusion, let's leave to the General 

18 Assembly the degree of responsibility and the flexibility 

19 with which to meet that responsibility as these problems 

20 arise and as thsy can best be dealt with by all of the 

21 power of inquiry and debate of the General Assembly 



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1 rather than our undertaking to do it here at this time. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes . 

3 MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, I v/ould like to 

^ ask a question for clarification. I would like to Imow 

5 whether there is anythiiig in the staff memo or in the 

6 proposal marked with your name v;hich restricts in any 
way the plenary power of the Legislature to decide what 

6 regions should be created, whether any region should 

9 be created and if so, what powers should be given to 

^^ those regional governments except possibly the question 

11 of — except the possibility that regional governments 

^^ may be activated by action of counties without the 

1^ consent of the Legislature which I understand is a 

1^ special subject which will be discussed by itself. Is 

15 there anything else? 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: The answer to your three 

1''' questions are yes, no, yes. In other words, there isn't 

18 anything in either which prevents the Legislature from 

19 creating any regions they desire or changing them. Your 

20 second question is or is there anything to prevent the 

21 Legislature not creating the regions and the answer is 



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1 yes, that is forbidden. The drafts here provide in 

2 effect that there must be regions. Now the Legislature 

3 can define them or change them but there must be regions. 
^ Now the third question you asked vas there anything in 

the drafts that took av/ay the power of the Legislature 
to give the powers to the local regions or to limit the 

^ powers to the local regions and I said the answer to 

8 that was yes, there is nothing in here to limit. Perhaps 

^ that shouldn't be an unqualified yes. The power of the 
local Legislature to limit would be the same as -- I 

^^ mean the power of the Legislature to limit the regional 

"^^ government's exercise of power V70uld be the same as its 

13 power to limit the county. 

14: In other words, it could do so only by 

15 general law applicable to generally, to the regions. 

IS It could not take away the pov7ar of the individual 

17 counties or the people or however you work it to create 

18 a charter defining the powers of the region. In other 

19 words, the concept here is that the powers flow from 

20 the counties to the regions. The Legislature has just 
^^ the same measure of control over that as it has over 

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1 the pov7ers of the counties. 

2 Mr. Halle, 

3 MR, HAILE: I would like to suggest on this 

4 motion we are discussing that the regions be placed in 

5 the Constitution contrary to what V7e do — we don't 

6 put county lines in the Constitution, but place the 

7 regional boundaries in the Constitution and at the 

8 moment provide that they may be altered by the Legisla- 

9 ture v7ithout a referendum. That V70uld be a useful 

10 device. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that in effect is what 

12 is in ray draft. 

13 MR. HMLE; That is V7hat I am moving. 

14 THE CKAIRM^\N: But rather than have that 

15 perhaps V70ven in with this question, I made a note here 

16 that that really ought to be submitted as a separate 

17 question. 

18 MR. RAILE: Very well. 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: Is there a question before 

20 the Chair? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: The policy question is whether 



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the provision to be included in the Constitution shall 
be permissive merely, that is authorizing the Legislature 

3 to create but nothing more or v/hether itdiould in 

4 addition provide skeleton for such regions as the skeleton 

5 term has been defined. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: Is there a motion on that? 

7 THE CIiAIRMA.N: Simply in accord with your 

8 suggestion. Mr. Martineau. 

9 MR. MARTINEAU: Doesn't this motion also go 

10 to the manner in which these regional governmsnts are 

11 formed? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: No, that is a separate 

13 question to coma up separately. 

14 MR. M\RTINI1^U: I would like to speak 

15 in fv^vor of the Con;:nittee*s viewpoint and going along 

what 

16 with/Hal Clagett said. It seems to me that at this 

17 point to try to specify V7hat these regions, how many 

18 regions there are, how they are to be created or anyth5.ng 

19 else, would be a great mistake. I don't — once again 

20 I think we are in a situation where we have no idea 

21 v;hat the future holds and to say that there shall be 



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1 five regions or fewer makes no sense at all to me. It 

2 doesn't guarantee if the regions are going to be 

3 reasonable regions. You could have four regions divided 

4 in a small area and the rest of the state would then 

5 have to be -- 

6 THE CHAIRH\N: May I interrupt. Again 

7 because I thought from the earlier discussion that this 

8 is going to be really a separate discussion. I had 

9 noted it as a separate question how many regions because 

10 it seems to ma that you may favor the idea of having 

11 a skeleton but there may be differences as to whether 

12 it should be five. 

13 MR. M^RTINEAU: V/ithout specifying any 

14 number ;■':-■ I-';, it doesn't do any good to specify any 

15 number whether it is three, four, five, or ten. You 

16 don't gain anything by this because your regions can 

17 wind up being completely unreasonable. It doesn't 

18 prevent the proliferation of a sroall number of regions 

19 in one metropolitan area and let the rest of the state 

20 have only one or tv;o regions. For that reason I think 

21 the Committee draft is exactly the way we should adopt 



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1 this, that we don't know what the future holds and 

2 to try to specify is a great mistake. 

3 TI-IE CH/ilRKAN: Dr. Bard. 

4: DR. BARD: I think that fundamentally the 

5 problems of government have transcended the boundary 

6 lines of corporate limits as we know them to such a 

7 degree that not to make skeletal structural procedure 

8 for regional governments as X v.^ould see it, nor the 

9 demand of our times and the early history of our 

10 country, the same kind of arguments V7ere stated in setting 

1^ forth the boundaries of our states as far as the 

^2 western territories v;ere concerned. But V7e did have 

13 provisions in regard to chai^ging those boundary lines 

1^ and because V7e did set forth the concept of federalism 

15 within the constitution, we were able to move ahead, 

16 What we are doing here is to set forth a concept V7ith 

17 some strength. I think to set it forth in a fairly 

18 reasonable fashion would be to indicate we have no faith, 

19 that we are moving in this direction and in terms of the 

20 statement that the General Assembly should have the 

21 requirements, they V70uld still have under the proposed 

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1 The Congress had the power in regard to the 

2 western territories. Nothing was frozen solidly. It 

3 was just a viewpoint that was necessary in terms of 

4 those times and I think in the same way, Mr. Chairman, 

5 our viewpoint, as far as the 1960's are concerned, needs 

6 to be so stated. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, my thinking 

8 has changed in the course of this discussion. I am 

9 in favor of the Committee's viewpoint of not trying 

10 to categorize or skeletonize the regional governments. 

11 It seems to me that the arguments in favor of it are 

12 arguments properly made before a Committee of the 

13 Legislature or before the Legislature and not made at 

14 this body. I do not think we should attempt to write 

15 the wisdom of the movement into a formula for the future. 

16 It seems to me that is what we are trying to do if 

17 we now prescribe for alltime what the nature of the 

18 regional government should be. I am conscious of the 

19 fact that the Committee, the Commission V7ants to give 

20 an impetus to this movement but it does not seem to me 

21 this is the way to do it. I think I agree with Mr. Claget 



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1 and Mr. Martineau when they say that however urgent 

2 this problem may be a constitutional mandate is not the 

3 v/ay to solve it. It should be solved with the legislative 

4 mandate operating within permissive constitution 

5 limitations. 

I support the Committee's view. 

7 DR. JENKINS: The difficulty I find with the 

8 so-called skeleton arrangement is that the whole thing 

9 is so indefinite that V7e seem to say that we V7ill set 

10 up five or less or fewer definite regions or departments 

11 but no tv:o people on this Commission would agree on 

12 exactly V7hat these regions are to do or these regional 

13 organizations or their form of government. 

14 We leave that to the General Assembly. It 

15 seems to me that v;e should authorize this by the 

16 General Assembly and let the General Assembly set up 

17 tlieir whole procedure. 

18 THE CHAIPvilAN: Mr. Brooks. 

19 MR. BROOKS: First I think, well, let me 

20 cbrify one difference bet^veen the staff memo and the 

21 one Mr.Eney has prepared vjhich sets forth specific 



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1 regions in the Constitution to become active if the 

2 counties do not establish regions themselves or the 

3 Legislature does not and that is the staff point of 

4 view would be that the regions should be established 

5 after a study of that particular subject by an altogether 

6 different group to make a report to the Convention as 

7 to what would be desirable regions. At this point in 

8 history, to put it in the schedule subject to General 

9 Assembly modification as the years advance and as the 

10 needs for activiation of different regions arise, with 

11 that distinction mentioned, I might say that the facts 

12 that require some kind of consideration of regional 

13 government is not a collection of facts dealing with 

14 future problems and future conditions. 

15 These facts are those existing today. To 

16 say that 28 governments to have specific powers today 

17 and that are active can be classified as only 28. The 

18 fact that they are located in one region is really 

19 quite an understatement of the situation existing in 

20 that region where these 28 exist today, London had only 

21 12 regions that were not getting along well at all together 



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1 and because of the inconsistencies of their performance 

2 gave rise to the Greater London Metropolitan Government 

3 which is now one year old. 

4 So the problem is with us now and it is 
6 28 times magnified, the problem that should occur and 

6 should be under consideration and it is a tremendous 

7 problem. Someone asked whether or not the classification 

8 of counties is in any way a limitation of the regions. 

9 Of course, regional governments can be 

10 set up and be given grant of powers by the General 

11 Assembly from the state's powers and therefore does not 

12 require any kind of withdrawal necessarily, the powers 

13 of local government. It was being suggested in the K 

14 staff memo that local governments should be able to 

15 create such governments and should be able to grant 

16 some of the powers that have been granted to them by 

17 the General Assembly to such an established regional 

18 government. 

19 But there is no inherent limitation on the 

20 number of these regional governments through the 

21 classification of counties provision in that you do not 

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have to withdraw any powers from the counties in order 
to establish a regional government. 

So you have no check on how many of these 
there will be. So you are presented with a problem of 
perhaps a proliferation of regional governments. You 
could have, you could easily have 12 or so in the state 
which really won't resolve the problem. I think, too, 
it ought to be noted that since we have heard from 
four ,and only four of the members are with us today from 
the Coramittee, three of them expressed a viewpoint in 
favor of an establishment of some sort of skeleton 
regional government. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, I would like to 

state my views . 

THE CHAIR^N: Before you close, oh, it 
is not your motion. Go ahead. 

MR. SYKES: I would like to state at least 
what I think are now my views on the whole subject. 
The questions are inter-related but I think that there 
is no significant restriction on legislative power if a 



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•^ skeleton such as I would envision it were put into the 

2 Constitution and that the net effect of putting it in 

J vjould be psychological and suggestive. 

4 That is these regional governments would 
g be dormant purely until the Legislature chose to 

5 activate them. I think that the localities should have 
Y a right to initiate their activation but only subject 

Q to the veto of the Legislature, the same way localities 

9 can contract for intergovernmental authorities. I 

IQ think that if the Legislature is given the power over 

11 the activiation, then the Legislature retains all the 

12 power and what we are talking about is essentially a 

13 psychological question and the answer depends upon how 

14 strongly you value a push toward regional government, 

15 and I personally value it very highly. 

,g THE CHAIRMAN: Let me make just two comments. 

lY ■ First, so that there will be no misunderstanding, I 

13 think we ought to consider separately and as a separate 

19 question the question of how many regions or if there 

20 ought to be any limit on the number of regions because 

21 even if one favors regions, I can see that there might 



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1 be some difference of opinion as to how many or whether 

2 there should be any. So I would suggest that you express 

3 your opinion on this question without regard to 

4 any limitation at all or any specific limitation on 

5 the number of regions. 

6 Secondly, let me make this one other 

7 observation. I think the term skeleton government is 

8 an unfortunate one to use to describe the suggestion 

9 here in the staff memo or opinion because it really 

10 isn't that. It doesn't provide a skeleton form of 

11 government. What it does do and what each of them do 

12 and what is the only gap in my way of thinking in the 

13 Committee's memo is that it provides a machinery by 

14 which the local governments involved or the people of 

15 the area can call into being a regional government if 

16 the Legislature has not acted to do so. To put it 

17 another way, it provides a machinery by which the local 

18 governments involved or the people involved can call 

19 into being against the will of the Legislature a regional 

20 government. 

21 I think, therefore, that that really is the 



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1 issue that you are voting on here. The Corninittee's 

2 recommendation is that the legislative power be para- 

3 mount in this matter and that there be no regional govern- 
or ment unless the Legislature gives its acquiescence. 

5 The other is that any one of three agencies 

6 may call into being a regional government, the 

7 Legislature, the government of the local unit involved 

8 or the people of the local units involved. A vote aye 

9 will be a vote in favor of the Coninittee approach, 

10 that is permissive only. That is that the Legislature 

11 and only the Legislature shall have the power to call 

12 into being the regional government or to provide 

13 machinery by which such a government may be called into 

14 being. A vote no will be a vote in favor of the 

15 proposition that independently of the Legislature, 

16 against the will of the Legislature, the local units 

17 or the people or some combii^a tion would be able to call 

18 such a structure into being. 

19 MR. MARTXNEAU: Perhaps I misunderstood but 

20 I thought you told me when I asked a question that that 

21 is exactly what we weren't voting on. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, I am afraid I 

2 have confused it. I did not mean to suggest that the 

3 vote now is going to be a vote necessarily on whether 

4 the local government or the people or a combination of 
6 the two is voting. That we can put up as a separate 

6 question. The question here involved is whether the 

7 regional government can be called into being only when 

8 and as the Legislature determines by the Legislature 

9 or whether it can be called into being by some other 

10 group. 

11 MR. MARTINEAU: Mr. Chairman, I thought the 

12 question was whether the Constitution was to direct 

13 the Legislature to create the regions and then all other 

14 questions were being left to the future, or whether 

15 the Constitution merely said that the Legislature could 

16 create regional governments. I thought that was the 

17 issue. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: If you want to put it that 

19 way, we can. I think one involves the other. Mr. Miller 

20 MR. MILLER: I want to know whether what 

21 we are voting on would deprive the Legislature of the 



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right to say it won*t be done. 

In other words, I personally wouldn't want 

3 to vote another restriction on our Legislature that 

4 represents the whole state and I don't approve of 

5 setting up a bit of machinery that would allow local 

6 units to do something without the permission of the 

7 Legislature or at least if the Legislature didn't want 

8 to prevent it. 

9 THE CEAIRmN: I would have to say, Mr. 

10 Miller, in the light of the last corranent that that 

11 probably is the next question and not the question 

12 presently presented. I suppose what you want as the 

13 question presently presented is the way Mr. Martineau 

14 last phrased it, namely, whether the Constitution shall 

15 merely authorize the Legislature to create regional 

16 governments or whether the Constitution shall say that 

17 the Legislature shall create regional governments. 

18 Now this doesn't resolve very much in my 

19 mind but maybe this is the way you prefer it. 

20 DR. BURDETTE: Not create regional governments, 

21 but create regions. Isn't that the distinction you make? 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, regions. 




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MR. CLAGETT: And provide the skeleton of 




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government for those regions. 




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on the Chair if Mr. Martineau would put the proposition 




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in the form of a motion duly seconded and then we can 




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vote on it that way. 




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conflict here is between the Committee's 11.01 (b) 




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and the staff memo 11.02(a). It is whether the General 




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Assembly may provide for law for the creation of 


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regional governments and 11.02(a) is the state shall 




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be divided into blank regions for which regional repre- 




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sentation -- 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Except 11.02(a) embraces 




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the other problem. 




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MR. MARTINEAU: I realize that, but the 




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state shall and the General Assembly may is really the 




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issue. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Let's say the issue is whether 




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it shall be permissive or mandatory, meaning by permissive 






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that it is the Committee draft that the Legislature is 
authorized to provide regional governments and regions 
and the alternate, the mandatory being that the 
Constitution shall require the Legislature to establish 
regions. 

Is there any further question or discussion? 

All right, a vote aye is a vote in favor of 
the permissive form, committee form. All those in 
favor, please signify by a show of hands. Contrary, 
The motion is carried twelve to six. 

Now this leaves me in a quandry as I put it 
previously, because it seems to me that if your decision 
here is that the provision in the Constitution shall 
be merely permissive, there is no question to put up 
to the Commission as to whether the regional government 
may be called into being by anyone else. 

It seems to me you have already resolved 

that. 

MR. BROOKS: I would think not, 

MR. MARTINEAU; Once the Legislature acts, 

then the question is, in other words, once the Legislature 



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1 acts in forming regions, then the next question is or 

2 the next questions are how many regions will there be, 
5 will there be any restriction on the Legislature in 

4 creating regions and secondly whether the Legislature, 

5 only the Legislature can activate the regional 

6 government or can some other body do it, 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, let's take up 

8 next the question of whether the Constitution should 

9 have any limitation on the number of regions to be 

10 created by the Legislature, if it creates any and if 

11 so, what the number would be. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to 

13 make it any more confusing, but I still don't think we 

14 have determined the question of whether or not, although, 

15 I think it is implicit and mayba this is really for 

16 clarification, the staff report and your report include 

17 a skeleton for regional government and provide for a 

18 method of a charter being drawn either by the local 

19 units themselves or by the General Assembly and either 

20 giving to that newly created unit certain powers. 

21 That is what I thought we were speaking about when we 



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were directing our attention to a, to the Constitution 
requiring regions and a skeleton of their government. 
By our vote where we, were the Committee recommends 
merely that the General Assembly may create regional 
governments, is it implicit that we are not going ahead 
and recommending any particular structure either in the 
form of a charter or other skeleton? 

THE CHAIRMAN: That's true. 

MRo CLAGETT: Very well. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Now the question for discussion 
is whether, if the Legislature creates regions, there 
shall be any constitutional limitation on the number and 
if so, what the number should be. 

JUDGE ADKINS: I would speak in favor of 
no constitutional limitation and I would use what I 
consider to be prims Exhibit A, that the opportunity to 
make an error is contained in the Chairman's draft of 
11.02 where he creates an Eastern District consisting 
of ten counties. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Ten. It should be nine. 

JUDGE ADKINS: Nine counties which would 
ther eby create a governmental unit which is 150 miles 

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1 long, which is no more similar, no more similarity 

2 between the problems of Cecil County in which we are now 

3 and the problems of Somerset County than there are 

4 between day and night and a governmental area comprising 

5 that area should it ever need a reasonable government 

6 would simply be impossible. 

7 I point that out simply to say that again 

8 it seems to me impossible at this stage in history 

9 to regionalize the state in an effective V7ay in the 

10 Constitition. Had this problem arisen tv/enty years 

11 ago, I suspect that the proposals made here would have 

12 been completely different. I don't know what they have 

13 been. 

14 MR. MILIER: If I can interrupt, it would 

15 make ai oyster stew. 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: I would urge that first that 

17 there be no limitation. If that fails, I will urge 

18 that there be at least five if the five are going to be 

19 the ones you propose. 

20 DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, despite the hard 

21 and insidious and effective work of Mr. Clagett's Commit ttee, 



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1 I just don't think that this Commission has had or 

2 can have sufficient time to study all of the ramifications 

3 of regional governmant. I was a member of the Governor's 

4 Metropolitan Area Commission a few years ago. 

5 As I recall, we met for tv70 years just on 

6 the Baltimore Metropolitan Area and came out with 

7 several volumes and when this question is resolved, it 
d seems to me it is going to require r, considerable more 
9 study than this Comfnission can give it. Therefore, I 

10 am in favor of not placing limitations on the General 

11 Assembly in the Constitution on this matter. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

13 I want to add just one foot note and that is to say that 

14 I echo the viev7S expressed by Judge Adkins and lest 

15 you wonder v/hy I prepared this in this way and then 

16 expressed that view, let rae say that this plan of 

17 regions is the plan recommended by the Regional Planning 

18 Council if there be regions created as of today. 

19 I would not be concerned about putting all 

20 of the Eastern Shore into one region so long as the 

21 Legislature had the power to increase the number of 



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1 regions. As a matter of fact, I rather suspect that 

2 that will be the one problem to provoke legislative 

3 action in a hurry, that there V7ill be an amendment right 
^ there that we have the lovjer half of the Eastern Shore 

5 region in the upper half of the Eastern Shore region 

6 or half of the Choptank in the upper Choptank, I 

7 recognize the problem the staff has pointed out, John 

8 Brooks has pointed out so forcibly that if this 

9 division into regions is carried to an extreme, you 

10 accomplish nothing. All you have done is create another 

11 mass of governmental units that is unwieldy. 

12 On the other hand, I would certainly at this 

13 time say there had to be at least six regions because I 
14: would certainly want to admit the possibility at least 

15 that the Eastern Shore could be divided into two and if 

16 I progressed to six, I could very rapidly progress to 

17 seven to eight to nine to ten. I therefore on balance 

18 would not favor the limitation. 

19 MR. SCANLAN: Now that you have revealed you 

20 are not the anonymous author of this particular document. 

21 THE ClLAIPvMAN: Oh, but I am. In the solitude 



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1 of my own office I did it. 

2 MR. SCANLAN: This particular paragraph 

3 read like an order of the Union Army Circa 1865. 

4 MR. CLAGETT: I might in fairness also say 

5 that this drafting job was undertaken by Mr. Eney at 

6 the request of the Committee because V7e did want to 

7 have before the Commission alternative approach defined 

8 as well as we thought the most able person could define 

9 it. That is exactly what he did undertake to do. So 

10 as I point out, he did it in two days. X am not going 

11 to limit it to that because V7e have been digesting this 

12 thing from the very first meeting of the Committee and 

13 Dr. Jenkins, one of the very first policy questions 

1^ that was considered by this Committee was whether or not 

15 V7e V7ere going to hold onto the counties and cities at 

16 that time as basic political subdivisions or whether we 
IV were going to approach the problem from a new point of 

18 view, namely from a regiaial point of view. 

19 Now that approach was not the approach that 

20 V7e are dealing with new entirely. It was a much more 

21 restricted approach. But we have been all the way through 



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1 this year and a half digesting this regional concept and 

2 we feel without repeating everything that has been said 

3 that in essence it is a concept which time and the 

4: future is going to have to define rather than our under- 

5 taking to define it at the present time. 

6 Now there is only one other thing that I 
would like — 

8 THE CKAIRMA.N: Is this on the question now, 

9 the number of regions because I want to^t a vote on 

10 it. 

11 MR, CLAGETT: It seems to me and this is 

12 more or less a basic concept to some extent too, that 

13 where a group of counties or vjhere, let us say, more than 

14 one county or even one county wants to have a region 

15 created and V7ants that region created because of the 

16 problems which they are confronted with and can't solve 

17 because they transcend the boundaries of the particular 

18 county, and go over into the neighboring counties, that 

19 there is nothing to stop the representatives in the 

20 General Assembly from that area britg ing this matter 

21 before the General Assembly and having the General 



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1 Assembly begin to wrestle with and to define, maybe only 

2 one region and that v;ould be the number appropriate 

3 at that time and then if, as they aired the problem 

4 as it has been brought before them by the representative 

5 from that area, then maybe it will stimulate the 

6 representatives of another area so that they come up and 

7 then possibly two regions result from such action and 

8 so on you can carry the thing to the point. 

9 True, there may be 12 such regions but there 

10 may be only two regions at that time and should we 

11 really at this time try to determine out of the thin 

12 air and the thin air because we don't know what we are 

13 dealing with entirely in every respect an arbitrary 

14 number and so restrict in a way which really might be 

15 an unwarranted restriction at the time V7hen the problem 

16 is directly being debated and considered. 

17 THE CHAIRIIAN: Now the question arises on 

18 the policy question as to whether the Constitution shall 

19 specify the number of regions which can be created by 

20 the Legislature. A vote aye will be a vote in favor of 

21 a constitutional limitation and if that is in the majority, 



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1 then we will take another vote on how many. A vote no 

2 will be a vote against any constitutional limitation 

3 on the number of regions. Mr. Miller. 

4 . MR. MILLER: Would this define a minority 

5 or a limit on the number of counties that would be involve 

6 in a region? 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: No, it would not. 

8 MR. MILLER: It would just occur to me that 

9 the approach should be that it v7ould, to have a 

10 region you ought to have X number of counties rather 

11 than if you limit the number of regions. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: This would not. I might say 

13 to you, Mr, Miller, that that phase of the matter has 

14 been discussed in Committee and by others and it runs 

15 into great problems. I think you can consider the 

16 possibility that in the future you may have a situation 

17 where you are dealing not with counties as you know 

18 them today or as their boundaries are today. I think 

19 you get into confusion worse than boundaries really. 

20 MR, MILLER: I think so too but my thought 

21 is if you put an arbitrary limit as to the number of 



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regions in the Constitution, you make it inflexible 
and impersonal against putting a number, 

THE CHAIRMAN: A vote aye is a vote in 
favor of a constitutional limitation on the number of 
regions, A vote no is a vote against any constitutional 
limitation on the number of regions. All those in 
favor, please signify by a show of hands. Contrary, 
The vote no is carried. The vote is nothing to eighteen. 

In other words, the vote is unanimous against 
any constitutional limitation on the number of regions. 
Now I would assume that the next question then that you 
want to consider is whether a, once a region is 
created by the Legislature whether a regional government 
can be called into being by any agency other than the 
Legislature, Mr, Martineau, 

MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to speak in 
favor of once again the Committee draft and in opposition 
to the staff draft for this reason. First of all, I 
think the only reason you would permit a body other than 
the Legislature to call a regional government into 
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1 to occur and I think this matter of, I think for a 

2 state to draft into the Constitution a political game 

3 which you think is more likely to achieve the result 

4 you want, and secondly, I think it is a mistake to 

5 think the Legislature isn't going to do this if the 

6 region or the people in the region want it to be done. 

7 I think if they V7ant it to be, if the local 

8 governing body, a substantial number of people in the 

9 community or in the region that want the regional govern- 

10 ment to be created, the Legislature is going to do it. 

11 Lastly I think it would be a serious mistake 

12 to permit the creation of a regional government, that 

13 is an entirely new functioning governing body governing 

14 a substantial portion of the state v;ithout the consent 

15 of the Legislature. 

16 I think this is uniquely a question that 

17 can be decided only by the Legislature and should be 

18 decided only by the Legislature. For that reason I 

19 would hope the motion would fail or pass, I am not sure 

20 which. 

21 DR. BimDETTE: If I understand this question 



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correctly, first of all, as we have it, the Legislature 
would have to set up some kind of general framework 
for regional government. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, I would not say that. 
The vote that was taken was that the Legislature would 
first have to create a region. 

DR. BURDETTE; Exactly. 

THE CHAIRI'IAN: And the question now is 
whether the Legislature shall set up the framework of 
government or called into being by some other way. 

DR. BURDETTE: Your wording is much better 
than what I tried to word. I am impressed by the 
point Mr. Martineau made has been taken care of under 
the presumption we are operating under. The Legislature 
has already said that there may be regions, 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: The Constitution is saying 

it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, Dr. Burdette is correct 
in that the Legislature has gone one step further 
than that, I would say, and said these are the regions. 

DrI BURDETTE: I am not quite sure what we 



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1 are talking about. Let me say I would favor that if 

2 the Legislature says there may be regions then I would 

3 favor the activation either by the Legislature or some 

4 popular actiono 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it the effect of the 

6 previous vote is that the Legislature and only the 

7 Legislature can define a regiono 

8 DRo BURDETTE: Yes. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: And create the region? 

10 DRo BURDETTE: Correct. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: This does not mean regional 

12 government? 

13 DRo BURDETTE: Correct. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We are now considering the 

15 next question, 

16 DRo BUPvDETTE: Yes, sir. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN; In providing the government 

18 for a region as the Legislature has defined a region 

19 and who can do so. 

20 I DRo BURDETTE: Yes, sir. I would like to 

21 ! speak for the point that in my judgment, Mr. Martineau 
is essentially correct in that the Lec^isla ture must act 

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1 firsto Then the question turns, should the people of 

2 such a region be able to activite. I would favor that 

3 because I don't mean it should be exclusive, I think it 

4 should be activatable either by the Legislature or the 

5 people because I think every now and then people in 

6 public office and place get a certain vested interest 

7 and there comes times when I hope would be as infrequent 

8 as possible that the people must move to make a changCo 

9 Now this is exactly the same principle that 

10 we apply with respect to the charter government in the 

11 state. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN; MrSo Freed lander. 

13 MRS, FREEDLANDER: We have had precedent 

14 in the existing Constitution providing for classification 

15 of cities o I am not speaking in favor of that and 

16 there has been no classification of cities so you could 

17 provide in the Constitution for including regional govern- 

18 ment and intergovermental authorities and never have 

19 it activated and we know in the Baltimore Metropolitan 

20 area that the county executives of Anne Arundel County 

21 and Baltimore County and the Republican Mayor of the 



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City, all of these Republicans tried to organize 
a volunteer organization and found themselves hamstrung. 
There could be instances when the Legislature would not 
want to activate this and if the people of the county 
wanted it activated, then the Legislature might set up 
an organization for doing this. I am in favor of allow- 
ing for these three alternatives. 

MR. CLAGETT: We are getting ourselves into 
an area of confusion which is really one that practicalitie^ 
would justify. Taking the experience of Article 11(a), 
and we don't know what 11(f) will be, the Constitution 
in Article 11(a) provides a means by which a charter 
may be enacted through the medium of a charter board and 
that lay dormant or lay dormant in the Constitution for 
many, many years and really did a great deal of harm 
because what it did, it stimulated a fight, particularly 
in Prince Georges County, betv7een factions where if 
the matter had been provided by the Legislature, no such 
fight v7ould ever have taken place. 

Using that as an experience, it seems to me 
that the Constitution to go ahead and provide for 



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1 multiple choice is creating a situation quite similar 

2 that took place with respect to charter and really 

3 prevented charter even though it is the best structural 

4 form of government from coming into being long befx)re 

5 now. 

6 So it seems to me that really another aspect 

7 of the thing dealing straight with practicalities, there 

8 is again, and I don't v;ant to repeat it in detail, but 

9 you have got representatives from the local areas in 

10 the General Assembly. They are there for a specific 

11 purpose of trying to carry out the wishes of the area 

12 which they are representing. Through tne medium of 

13 those representatives, it seems to me that provision 

14 can be made to allow for a choice from the area in the 

15 creating of the structure of these regions once the 

16 General Assembly has acted. There would be nothing to 

17 stop the bill which is enacted by the General Assembly 

18 at that time having determined that regional governments 

19 shall come into being the methods after procedures as 

20 to hov7 they shall coma into being. We are now trying 

21 to write or do the job of the General Assembly at a 



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1 time when we don't have the necessary information and 

2 materials to work with. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry. 

4 MR. GENTRY: Throughout the Committee's 

5 report, Mr. Clagett has referred to the aim of remaining 

6 flexible. Now here is a proposition suggested by the 

7 staff that would allow flexibility. It v/ould allow 

8 this activation of the regional governments in any of 

9 these three ways. Now in reply to Mr. Martineau's 

10 suggestion that this is a matter of state im.portance and 

11 should be treated by the General Assembly, as I read 

12 the staff's draft, any power, once vested, can be with- 

13 drawn by law would allov? the check and the necessary 

14 check to the General Assembly to take such action as 

15 may be necessary if there has been an invisible activa- 

16 tion through the operation of the board, legislative 

17 body within the region or the people within the region. 

18 I would certainly favor any of the three 

19 methods. 

20 THE .CHAIRMAN: Dr. V7 ins low. 

21 DR. WINSLOW: May I suggest, sir, that it 



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1 seems to me that if we were to follow Mr. Clagett's 

2 suggestion and leave this solely to the Legislature, we 
5 would not have had even yet a charter government in 

4 Baltitrare County. In Baltimore County there was a 

5 movement as early as 1919 to get a charter set up. It 

6 failed in a vote of the people. But the delegation from 

7 Baltimore County in the General Assembly has, from my 

8 observation, for three decades been at odds with this 

9 kind of thing and the powers of the political organijia- 

10 tion there even V7hen the final proposition came up for 

11 a charter government, the people who went to the Legisla- 

12 ture from Baltiraore County V7ere opposed to the formation 

13 of a charter because they held the power over what 

14 went on in Baltiraore County through their control of 

15 local legislation in the General Assembly. 

16 It seems to me there are times at least 

17 when the local community, the people, or the local 

18 governments ought to have a chance to activate the 

19 government in a region. 

20 THE CHAIRmN: Mr. Brooks. 

21 MR. BROOKS: I think under the Chairman's 



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1 proposal because of Section 11.05 what we have achieved 

2 if we were to adopt the proposed (b) section and only 

3 permit the General Assembly to create regional govern- 

4 raents, we V70uld be assuring ourselves the multiplicity 

5 of regional authorities because local government has 

6 constitutionally the pov/er to establish the regional 

7 authorities. They would not have the power to create any 

8 kind of regional government, 

9 Thus we have constitutionally provided for 

10 the alternative of the regional authorities and have 

11 practically assured that will be the direction in which 

12 the level of government between the counties and the 

13 state will go ino 

14 Second, I want to raise a questions I under- 

15 stood the vote to be a permissive vote to give the 

16 General Assembly the power to create regional representa- 

17 tive governments a while agOo Since then there has 

18 been some question of v;hether or not the General Assembly 

19 would in advance have to create any regions. The draft 

20 provides for the, creation of regional governmentSo 

21 I thought the vote was between whether it 



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1 was to be permissive or mandatory rather than the 

2 Legislature V70uld have to create the structure of 

3 regions before any counties could be established, 

4 THE CHAIRmN: I am not so sure that the 

5 distinction you are drawing is one that is at all clear. 

6 It is not clear to me. Part of my difficulty stems 

7 from the fact that as I indicated originally, I had 

8 great difficulty and still have great difficulty in 

9 separating in ray mind the permissive vote from this 

10 question. 

11 It seems to me that the two are inherently 

12 tied together. But I think if we get a vote on this 

13 question as to who can call into being the regional 

14 government, that maybe we can unravel the tangle that 

15 I think vze may be in. Judge Ad kins , 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: May I ask if we are now 

17 considering the right to call into being or to origination 

18 by petition so to speak and also the right of local 

19 county units to call, raise, or create a regional 

20 government? V/hat I am trying to ask, I guess, is, are 

21 we talking about tv/o other ways or just one other way? 



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1 Are we talking about doing it by petition of the voters 

2 and the right of the counties to agree among themselves 

3 to the creation of a regional government. Is that 

4 embraced within this single policy question? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think so. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to separate 

7 I it. 

8 THE CHAIRmN: Separate it if you want. 

9 MRS. BOTHE: The issue is really after a 

10 plan of regional government has been promulgated by 

11 the Legislature a county can operate or is this 

12 ' the plan itself might be initiated? 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: I think v;hat John Brooks 

14 understood your previous vote to be and what I did not 

15 understand it to be and the difficulty I had was because 

16 I couldn't separate these two things. 

17 I have great difficulty in envisioning an 

18 action by the Legislature that does nothing more than 

19 create regions without creating governments for the 

■ 

20 regions. That is why I had initially indicated that I 

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1 It seems to me that you may say this. The 

2 Legislature if it acts in the area of creating regions 
5 may create regions and create a form of government 

4 for the region or it may provide that the form of 

5 government for the region shall be determined by the 

6 participating governments or by members of a cliarter 
7" board and adoption of a charter and so forth. If the 
Q intent of the Commission is that when the Legislature 

9 acts to create regions and to create regional governments, 

10 it must do so by means of affording to the local areas 

11 and the local governments the right to draft the charter. 

12 Then I take it that would satisfy at least 

13 som6. The opposite view would be that the Legislature 

14 and only the Legislature could draft and provide the 

15 form of government. There is a third alternative that 

16 you could conceive of, I suppose, and that is that the 

17 Legislature v7ould provide the initial form of government 

18 ivhith, could then be amended by the people or the 

19 supporting governments. Dr. Jenkins. 

20 DR. JENKINS: I think I am in favor of a 

21 procedure — we have voted to make this permissive and 



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it is conceivable the Legislature will not act at all. 
I am in favor of a procedure enabling the counties or 
the people by petition to act in the event the 
Legislature does not acto 

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, this was the issue 
on the previous questions 

DR. BARD: V7e voted against that beforeo 
You voted against that, Dro Jenkins, 

MRo CLAGETT: Mr, Chairman, we are getting 
ourselves into an area of confusion. 

MRSo BOTHE: I second your motion, Mr, Clagett 

MRo CLAGETT: Let me get us out of it. 
Take a look at lloOl(b), In there we simply say the 
General Assembly may provide by law for the creation of 
civil divisions, including regional governments and for 
methods and procedures of creating, changing, and 
dissolving counties or other civil divisions and altering 
their boundarieSo 

So really here by the question that is before 
the Commission, we are getting into the operative 
function of the General Assembly and there is no need for 



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1 us to get into that area because as has been clearly 

2 pointed out, the General Assembly, when it starts the 

3 job of creating the regional governments, can do so 

4 in a number of different V7ays and by alternative methods. 

5 Number one, it can create the government 

6 and that is it or number two, providing that the 

7 region itself through a charter board or through some 

8 other medium can determine what the structure of that 

9 regional government shall be. For us to undertake to 

10 mandate that now, I believe would be a mistake and 

11 there is no reason for us to do so. 

12 TIIE CHAIRI-IAN: Mrs. Freed lender. 

X3 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I understand that we 

14 are only giving three alternatives. In lieu of the 

15 Legislature, there V70uld be the people or the counties 

16 as the staff memo says on Page No. 1. 

17 TAE CViklRKM^l Mr. Clagett's point is that 

18 there should not be that alternative. 

19 MR, GENTRY: Can I ask Mr. Clagett this 

20 question, in the event the Legislature does not do this 

21 activation who is going to do it? 



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MR. CIAGETT: Nobody is the answer. 
THE CHAIR^L^N: Exactly. 

3 MR. HARGROVE: Of course, that is exactly 

4 the point because I think we are talking about a 

5 Constitution and its responsibility, of course, to this 

6 Commission to give some direction, I suppose, in areas 

7 where, in new areas. 

8 I think past history has shown us that 

9 the General Assembly will probably do nothing in en 

10 area such as we have here. So far as I know, they 

11 have made no attempt at regional government or any such 

12 thing but a proliferation of authority within the 

13 counties. So I think this is clearly an area where this 

14 Commission has to sort of prod the Legislature in one V7ay 

15 if they don't act, and I think the people should be 

16 able to act in some way. I think Dr. Jenkins' point 

17 is that if the Legislature does not go so far as the 

18 permissive aspect of this, then I think the people should 

19 because we all agree in the future we are going to need 

20 some sort of regional government. 

21 MR. CL/iGETT: Mr. Chairman, I think we have 



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1 really, we are getting back into the very area where 

2 we have already made a determination and we are getting, 

3 the Consnission is getting itself back into an area very 

4 similar to the problem that the Committee had to deal 

5 with. 

6 We voted, as I understood it, a little while 

7 ago* that the responsibility for determining whether or 

8 not a regional government should be created rested 

9 squarely with the General Assembly. Now we are moving 

10 avjay from that determination, namely that it is permissi.ve 

11 with the General Assembly and we are creating other 

12 means by which it can be accorapl:*s hed, namely by the 

13 people on the petition or by the action of the governing 

14 bodies of one or more counties. 

15 It seems to me that what we are really 

16 doing is repeating ourselves rather than clarifying the 

17 situation. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett, that is saying 

19 exactly v^hat I said earlier. I thought the two questions 

20 were one but the Commission decided otherwise and I 

21 think we will make better time now if we try to resolve 



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it. 

DR. BARD: I voted earlier in letting the 
people have the choice in the first place and if they 
can't and if it operates like 11(a), which indicates 
right nov7 in terras of formation of home rule, the 
General Assembly at its first session after the adoption 
of the amendment shall by public general law apply the 
grant of expressed powers. 

Once this grant of expressed powers is 
stated, then there are different wayssof operating 
after that point. Now I firmly believe that had it 
not been for the voice of the people in Anne Arundel 
County, they v7ouldn't have home rule now. 

So the very least that I would like to see 
happen is once the General Assembly takes the first 
lead. --in fact, I v;ould like to have the people have 
the opportunity of first leave &g well but v?e voted 
that down in the last motion, then I V7ould say the people 
ought to have the right to follow in connection with 
the specific nature of that res ion. 

MR. CLAGETT: Getting into the very problem 



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1 that the General Assembly and counties have been dealing 

2 with and now you are getting into the question of 

3 whether regional governments should have home rule. 

4 THE CHAIRmN: That is precisely the point 

5 and we might as V7ell vote and then go to lunch. 

6 It seems to me that you have put your 
finger on exactly v/hat it is and that is the question 

8 of whether regional governments shall have home rule. 

9 We give the counties home rule. The only difference it 

10 seems to me between the counties and the region is 

11 that with respect to the county we are saying that it 

12 has all the powers of local government except what is 
15 V7ithdrawn by general act of the Legislature. 

14 You can't do that V7ith regions because it 

15 would be inconsistent with the action as to counties. 

16 Therefore, you have got to have machinery to do the 

17 reverse for regions. You have got to give them an 

18 expressed grant of power. It seems to me, however, that 

19 subject to that one limitation the procedure ought to 

20 be the same, namely that the General Assembly's power 

21 to grant or withdraw powers from a region should be only 



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1 the power to enact a general law and that the regions 

2 ought to get their powers from either the people within 

3 the region or the county governments within the region 

4 and that, therefore, it seems to me, that the charter 

5 or form of government for a region should be as deter- 

6 mined by the people or by the participating governments 

7 within the region, 

8 Now I am very much afraid that the vote on 

9 this question could be such as to, in my mind, at least 

10 to provide a substantial conflict with the previous 

11 vote but that was the difficulty I had initially. If 

12 it goes the other way, it v7on't be the conflicto So 

13 let's find out what the general view of the Commission 

14 membership iSo 

15 The question is whether or not the form of 

16 the regional government, its powers, its structure, can 

17 be brought into being only by or through, by an act 

18 of the Legislature or through procedures prescribed by 

19 the Legislature which is the provision of 11.01(b), as 

20 presented by the Committee or whether it could be 

21 called into being and defined independently of and hence 



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1 against the will of the Legislature by either the 

2 participating governments or the people within the area. 

3 MRS. FREEDIANDER: Just a point of in forma - 

4 tion. It is not against. I think you are using the 

5 word against. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I am using the v7ord 

7 against in the sense of not against the will of the 

8 Legislature as expressed in general legislation but 

9 against the will of the Legislature to the extent it 

10 could not be specifically withdrawn. 

11 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Could it be instead of 

12 instead of against? 

13 THE CI-LAIRHAN: I would not think so but 

14 if it makes you understand it better that way -» 

15 DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I find myself 

16 in difficulty because I do not agree with the interpre- 

17 tation that our vote of the General Assembly may 

18 establish these V70uld necessarily preclude an additional 

19 provision that the counties may do this in the event of 

20 the General Assembly failing to do this. 

21 Therefore, I cannot vote on this question 



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intelligently. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, you could because I 
think that if the, with the majority of the Commission, 
if they favor giving the right to the local groups to 
determine the form of government of the region, in my 
mind it is inconsistent with the previous vote which is 
another way of saying that I probably misunderstood 
the previous vote. 

MR. MARTINEAU: Could I explain the previous 
vote? I think the Committee can be understood 
by looking at the staff memo draft 11, 02(a). If you 
look at the first words, the state shall be divided 
into so many regions by law, what we have now said is 
that the state may be divided into so many regions by 
lawo Now that we voted on. Now we are voting on the 
second part of that which says for which regional 
representative governments may be established in 
accordance with law by the General Assembly by concurrent 
action of the counties legislative body or affirmative 



action. 



THE CHAIRMAN: The difficulty is that it is 



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1 inconceivable to me that the Legislature is going to 

2 pass a law creating regions and not doing any more than 

3 thato 

4 MRo MARTINEAU: They cano 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: The question can be resolved 

6 by the vote here. 

7 MRo SYKES: I have a question of whether or 

8 not no matter how we vote on this it would still be open 

9 to the Legislature to change the regions around after the 

10 citizens within a given region try to establish a regional 

11 government so as to render what the citizens have 

12 done ineffective. 

13 It doesn't make any difference which way 

14 we voteo 

15 MRo CLAGETT: That is exactly right. 

16 MR* MARTINEAU: And the Legislature can take 

17 away all the pov;ers. 
IG MRo BROOKS: That is a separate questiono 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: We are not making progress, 

20 Let's take a vote and then go to luncho 

21 Tlve question arises on v;hether or not the 



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government of a region can be activated, brought into 
existence, given powers only by the Legislature or in 
accordance with methods prescribed by the Legislature 
or whether it can be brought into being, given powers, 
activated by the participating county governments or 
the people of the area in the regiono 

A vote aye is a vote in favor of the 
proposition that the regions can be brought into being, 
activated and given powers only by the Legislature or 
in accordance with methods prescribed by the Legislature 

This is the Comjnittee's position. All of 
those in favor, please signify by a show of handSo 
Contrary? The noes have it, six to eleven, which v.'ould 
mean that the regional government could be brought into 
being by action of the local governments or of the 
citizens of the area involvo;do 

Let's have lunch and come back as soon as 



possible 



(Luncheon recess ») 



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THE CHAIRMAN: As we resume the discussion 
of the report of the Committee on Political Subdivisions, 
may I as much for my own edification as for 
clarification of the record submit again to a vote 
without debate, merely so that I can see just what the 
sense was before, the question of whether the Legislature 
shall have the exclusive right. That is not what 
I want to say either, 

I was confused, as I indicated before lunch 
if the last vote turned out the way it did, because it 
would seem to me to be in conflict with the earlier 
vote, as I understood it, on the permissive effecto 

I take it that the combination of the two 
votes means that ths majority of the Commission feels 
that the Constitution should contain a provision authoriz 
ing the Legislature to create regions and regional 
governments but not requiring it to do so and the 
second vote means that if the Legislature creates regions 
and regional governments, then the form of government 
for a region may be as directed or approved by the 
participating governments or by the people of the area 



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1 involved and to me that means that if the regional 

2 government is established or a form of regional govern- 

3 ment provided by act of the Legislature, the act of the 

4 Legislature must either submit that to a referendum or 

5 provide that it is subject to change by the action of 

6 the local governments or the people of the areao 

7 If there is a different interpretation 

8 of the combination of the two votes, I don't know, 

9 understand what it is. Does anybody have any different 

10 interpretation? Mr. Sykes, 

11 MR. SYICES: I was with the Chairman up 

12 until the last point but I understand that the vote 

13 means in effect that the ultimate control is in the 

14 Legislature, that the people can, if they want to 

15 create a regional government and within a region but it 

16 must be within the region determined by the L<3gislature 

17 and the -- if the people start it, the Legislature can 

18 change the region and render the vote -- 
ig THE CHAIRMAN: You are talking about the 

20 i region rather than the regional government? 

21 i MR, SYKES: That is right, I understood the 



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distinction was between the region and the regional 
government and the vote was based upon the assumption 
that the Legislature might act to create regions without 
creating a regional government which was the very 
assumption that the Chair found it almost impossible 
to makco 

THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly, and I still doo 
Mro Martineau. 

MRo MARTINEAU: I think we all agreed with 
you up until the last point although I agree with you 
on the last point, I don't think we voted on it, that 
is the amendment of the form of government of the 
region which is that it can be changed, I think, we should 
permit it to be changed either by the Legislature or 
by the governments involved or the people involved, 
probably making everything subject to a referendum 
votCo But I don't think we discussed that or got into 



it at all, 



THE CHAIRMAN: Mr, Gentry, 

MR, GENTRY: That point is in the draft. 

MRo BROOKS: Wait, wait, what point is that 



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1 now, that either may change or that either may create? 

2 MRo GENTRY: May change, 

3 MRo MARTINEAU: We haven't gotten that far, 

4 I don't thinko 

5 MRo SYKES: No, Mr, Chairman, we did vote, 

6 I think, to the effect that unless the Legislature 

7 has acted first to create regions at least, that no 

8 local government, or no local group could, together 

9 define a region and establish a governmat for it, 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that is what I had 

11 understood but I again say that it is inconceivable to 

12 me that the Legislature is going to pass a law and 

13 create regions and stopo 

14 MRo SYKES: Me too, and that is why I 

15 suggested we weren't really voting on very mucho It 

16 didn't really make much difference. 

17 DRo WINSLOW: It seems to me, sir, that it 

18 is important for this to happen if the situation should 

19 arise in which the General Assembly is persuaded in one 

20 area of the state a regional governm.ent becomes desirable 

21 it could at that point create regions in the state, four, 



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1 five, six, eight, but create a government only for the 

2 one which seemed to be immediately necessary leaving 

3 it to future action by the General Assembly or by 

4 action of the local authorities to create government 

5 in other areas, just the same as it can do with counties, 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be possible. 

7 Mr. Gentry. 

8 MRo GENTRY: While you say it is inconceivable 

9 that is exactly what your draft is. Your draft, in 

10 11.02 a step up 1970, these five departments. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I understand that but 

12 then I provided as an integral part of that that the 

13 government of that region would be called into existence 

14 by either the Legislature or the people. I do not think 

15 except in the kind of situation suggested by Dr. V/inslow 
15 that the Legislature is going to do just that and stop. 
17 I think it is going to go ahead and provide regional 

19 government. 

19 MRo GENTRY: It may. 

20 MRSo BOTHE: Wouldn't it be some analogy 

21 as to what the Legislature might do in creating regions 



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1 to the present Constitution where there is provision for 

2 home rule and county rule but which is optional with 

3 the people to initiate? I look upon what the 

4 Legislature might end up doing as precisely the same 

5 kind of thing, 

6 MRo CLAGETT: I have a question of Dr, 

7 WinsloWo Assuming for the moment that the General 

8 Assembly created a region composed of, let us say, two 

9 countieSo And then assuming that a structure, however 

10 it came about, for the operation of that government 

11 came into existence and the General Assembly later passed 

12 a law saying that there should be no bb guns in that 

13 region -- wouldn't that run afoul of our restriction 

14 upon the General Assembly to pass local laws? 

15 DRo WINSLOW: No, nOo 

16 KRo CLAGETT: It would only affect two 

17 counties, the regiono 

18 DRo WINSLOW: But this would be under your 

19 general rule for classif icationo 

20 MR, CLAGETT: No, that is the next questiono 

21 Do you contemplate that the creation of a region v/ould 



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1 be defined by a classification? 

2 MR„ BROOKS: I do not think so. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: I wouldn't think so either. 

4 Then it would run afoul upon the restriction of the 

5 General Assembly to pass local legislation. 

6 MR. BROOKS: I wouldn't think so. 

7 MRo SYKES: Can I address myself to that? 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

9 MRo SYKES: This was a question I was 

10 going to raise. The power of classification in the 

11 draft, this raises another question, power classification 

12 in the draft is limited to counties. There is no 

13 limitation on the power of the General Assembly to 

14 legislate with respect to intergovernmental authorities 

15 or regions but the Legislature could take a section of 

16 Montgomery County and out of Montgomery County and add 

17 it to Howard County without changing the boundary of 

18 either county. What it would do would be to create a 

19 region consisting of one county and part of the other. 

20 It would give that region plenary governmental power, 

21 do nothing about the territories of the counties as such. 



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1 The home rules amendment would apply to 

2 counties only, the Legislature could effectively govern 

3 by its power over regions o It could do the same kind of 
4r thing with intergovernmental authorities. It could set 

5 the salaries of officers and say how many clerks could 

6 be employed and, as I read this draft now, I hope to 

7 be corrected if I am wrong, there is no restriction 

8 whatever upon the Legislature so long as it governs 

9 locally through authorities and regions rather than 

10 through countieSo 

11 THE CHAIRiMAN: Mrs, Freedlandero 

12 MRS, FREEDLANDER: That is precisely why 

13 we wanted to have the powers these regions would have 

14 would be only the powers which the counties gave them 

15 in a joint, tri-joint resolution or actiono 

16 MRo SYrCES: I don't know what the recominenda- 

17 tion is but I would like to know if I am correct in my 

18 reading of the draft. 

19 MR„ CLAGETT; I think the answer is that 

20 if it attempted to do so, it could create these intcr- 

21 governmental authoritieSo It could create the regions 



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1 but if it attempted to legislate through the region or 

2 through the intergovernmental authority, it would be 

3 subject to the restriction imposed and can only do 

4 so by general law as defined, 

5 MR. HAILE: I don't think so. 

6 DR. BURDETTE: I have read the language and 

7 I don't think that is in the language. 

8 MR. CIAGETT: Which one were you reading, 

9 Franklin? 

10 DR. BURDETTE: I was reading 11.02. 

11 MR, CLAGETT: Of the Staff? 

12 DR. BURDETTE: No, of yours. 

13 MRo GENTRY: Read the staff. 

14 MR, CLAGETT: Insofar as our draft is 

15 concerned and the recommendation of the Committee is 

16 that v?e do not impose any discriminatory restrictions 

17 other than the General Assembly only may provide for 

18 the basic units of government, namely the counties or 

19 other civil division which may include regional governments 

20 or intergovernmental authorities. 

21 MR. SYKES: Can I point out that you define 



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civil divisions as including regional governments and 
you commit the Legislature to provide for both of 
them and then you have in (b) of 11,02 , a system of 
classification for counties only and then in (d) of 
11.02 you have an express authorization for civil 
divisions which include regional governments to adminis- 
ter single or multi-purpose functions that transcend 
local boundaries and grant to them power to collect 
taxes and so on and there is no restriction in (d) 
which is an independent grant of power, no restriction 
upon the Legislature exercising, in effect, the pov7cr of 
local government upon each of them and if you did this, 
the Legislature could maintain the status quo, in effect, 
and negate all the effect of the home rule provisions 
designed to give the residual power to the county. 
I don't know that we can do anything about it here but 
it seems to me to be a very serious gap in the draft in 
some way and somebody ought to do something about it. 

THE CHAIR14AN: Let me break across the 
discussion and make a few decisions that we have to make 
in order to make progress. I realize that we have not 



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1 resolved all the problems in connection with regional 

2 governments or how we are going to create them. I 

3 think we have resolved all we can resolve right now 

4 unless we just drop everything else and concentrate on 

5 this which we simply can't do. I am therefore going to 

6 suggest that we move to Section 11.02 and the other 

7 sections keeping away except to highlight problems aris- 

8 ing out of the regional government concept to see if we 

9 can at least get the rest of it in reasonably good 

10 condition, and I think in a half hour V7e will simply 

11 have to suspend this discussion and move to consideration 

12 of the other matters and then if we can conclude the 

13 other matters, come back to this. 

14 But otherwise, there are very urgent matters 

15 we must act on this afternoon that we will not reach. 

16 Can we do that, Mr. Clagett? 

17 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, and I am 

18 now directing your attention to Page 13 of the Committee's 

19 Sixth Report and there we begin with Section 11.02, 

20 powers of counties and other civil divisions. Subsection 

21 (a), a county may exercise any power or perform any 



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1 function which is not denied to it by and I would like 

2 to insert there, this Constitution, by its charter or 

3 by law which in its terms and in its effects is applicable 

4 to all counties or to all counties of its class and 

5 which has not been transferred to another civil division. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 

7 MR. SYKES: I would like to ask for the 

8 elimination of the words in its terms and in its effects. 

9 I would move it be eliminated. 

10 MR. SCANLAN: Second. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Mr. Clagett. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: The Committee would very, 

13 very strongly oppose the passing of that motion by 

14 reason of the fact that as explained yesterday a 

15 considerable amount of research was done to attempt to 

16 find the best medium of defining what is meant by a 

17 general law and out of some 50 meanings of definitions 
the one which was most effective was this term in its 
terms and in its effects. It has been given a definite 



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governmental writing and authorities on government are 
concerned and it is one which we feel to be most 
effective insofar as placing upon the general assembly 
the restriction of passing local legislation. 

Therefore, we would very strongly urge that 
this phrase not be stricken. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 
Mr. Scanlan, 

MR. SCANLAN: It is just saving a little 
language, the law is either applicable to all counties 
or all counties in its class, it is a general law. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brooks. 

MR. BROOKS: The only point on that, this has 
been pretty much the language of the present Constitution, 
that is to say that it shall be applicable to all 
counties and the reason for expanding on it in two or 
three places in this article is that the present Court 
of Appeals has interpreted this nevertheless to mean 
that you can pass, that is the Legislature can pass 
laws applicable only to two or more counties so that it 
was felt that you again have to provide that you really 



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-y mean that it must be applicable to all the counties 

2 if you are to overcome the juducial precedents set at 

this point. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: What is the existing language? 

c You know the reference, 
o 

g MR, CLAGETT: Its terms or its effects 

n applicable to two or more counties. 

Q MR, SYKES: That is no problem. Two is 

g enough. 
20 MR. MARTINEAU: That is hardly precedent 

II that has to be overcome. 

22 MR. SYKES: The example of strip mining is 

23 a good example. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Where is the provision, 

25 Hal, do you know? 

MR. CI^GETT: Let me see. It is, well, it 
is in 11(f), Section 4, Page 85, that is dealing with 
code counties. 

MR. BROOKS; This doesn't have the two or 
more. This uses Section 4, Article 11(f). 



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1 Page 76, any law so drawn as to apply to two or more 

2 of the geographical subdivisions of this state shall 

3 not be deemed a local law, 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, isn't that the basis 

5 for the decisions of the Court of Appeals? 

6 MR. SYKES: Yes. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: We are very strongly of the 

8 opinion that that is not what we contemplate as being 

9 definitive of a general law. Here, by mere application 

10 to two or more, it is construed to be a general law. 

11 On the other hand, we say by terms and effect a general 

12 law is one which applies to all counties or all counties 

13 within a class and we want to depart without any question 

14 I or doubt from the definition here given to what consti- 

15 tutes a general law. 

16 DR. BURDETTE: There is another type of law 

17 we are trying to avoid that is one v;hich is alcohol, 

18 all the counties of the state with the exception of the 

19 following two which some people call a public exemplary 

20 law. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: I might point out further this 



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1 action of the Conunittee was as a result of a very 

2 strong recommendation being given by Dean Fordhara 

3 that when you attempt to define general law, the proper 

4 definition should be as used here, one which in terms 

5 and effect apply to all counties rather than to the 

6 contrary, anything to the contrary. 

7 MR. SYKES: It may not have effect in all. 

8 It seems to me you are limiting the concept of the 

9 general law. I think we might as well vote on it. 

10 MR. CLAGETT: Mrs. Kostr it sky, might ask 

11 you to make the conxnent there. 

12 MRS. KOSTRITSKY: This is perhaps a bit 

13 different whereby if the law had been held to be a 

14 general law which provides a different method for 

15 docketing cases in county A from that in county B or 

16 a general law which sets the salaries of sheriffs and 

17 sets it in a different way are different laws, so long 

18 as it legislates in the f5.eld, legislates from county 

19 to county. 

20 It has been determined to be a general 

21 law so long as it deals with the same subject. 



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1 MR . SYKES: You mentioned be uniformly 

2 applicable. That is much different from applicable in 

3 its terms and effects because it may be uniformly 

^ applicable in its terms and may have different effects 

5 in different counties and may have no effect in some. 

6 THE CR^IRMAN: It seems to me the phrase 

7 uniformly applicable would be better than the other 

8 phrase, 

9 DR. BURDETTE: How about uniformly applicable 

10 in its terms and effect? 

11 MR. CLAGETT: I think as the courts have 

12 determined in terms and effect it has been given the 

13 interpretation of uniform in its application and since, 
1^ as I mentioned earlier, the words have been given 

15 judicial interpretation and are subject to definition 

16 that the Committee would prefer to continue to use those 
1*7 terms rather than effect another terra which may have to 

18 go through the process of definition when brought into 

19 question in the future. 

20 MR, BROOKS: I was going to refer you to 

21 Article 11(e), Section 1, except as provided elsewhere 



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1 in this article the General Assembly shall not pass 

2 any law relating to incorporation, of those organizations), 

3 which will be special local in its terms or in its 

4 effects, et cetera. 

5 MR. SYKES: That distinguishes between the 

6 two and if you require it both for terms and for effect. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: Which article is that? 

8 MR. BROOKS: Article 11(e), Section 1. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: In there terms and effect 

10 apply alike to all municipal corporations. There again 

11 is the use of that term insofar as that constitutional 

12 writing is concerned and has been defined and 

13 consequently we would like to hold onto the definition 

14 as stated. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes, do you amend 

16 your motion to substitute the word uniformly? 

17 MR. SYKES: Yes, sir. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Who seconded the motion? 

19 MR. SCANLAN: I did. I accept the amendment. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: The question arises on the 

21 motion to amend Section 11.02(a) to strike out the words 



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which in its terms and in its effects and substitute 
the word uniformly. Is there any further discussion? 
Ready for the question? 

All those in favor of the motion, signify by 
saying aye. Contrary, no. The Chair is in doubt. 
All those in favor, signify by a show of hands. 

The motion fails eight to nine. Any further 
discussion as to Section 11.02,' ;11. 02 (b) . 

MRo CLAGETT: Classes of counties as 
defined shall be not more than five and shall not, 
and shall include at least three counties in any one 
class and shall be based upon population only. There 
shall be in effect only one classification at any one 
time and a new classification shall wipe out an old one. 

MRo HOFF: We don't have that language. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Where is that you are reading 

from? 

MR, CLAGETT: My hand is called. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You want to change it. 

MR. CLAGETT: Classes of counties based upon 
population as determined by the most recent United States 



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1 census or upon such other criteria as are determined 

2 by the General Assembly to be appropriate may be 

3 provided by law with not more than five classes and not 

4 less than three counties in any one class. No more 

5 than one classification shall be in effect at any one 

6 time but the classification may be changed at any time. 

7 MR. M^RTINEAU: Wouldn't it be much easier 

8 to say such other criteria as determined by law? That 

9 says the same thing as determined by the General Assembly 

10 to be appropriate. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: I think implicit here is 

12 a policy question of whether you are going to have the 

13 classes based only upon population or upon — 

14 THE CHAIRI-IAN: That is not his question. 

15 His question is merely a matter of — 

16 MR. CLAGETT: I have no objection to the 

17 change. 

18 THE CHAIRMf\N: Under the rules we have 

19 been following, when you say General Assembly without 

20 using the expression law, you would mean only the General 

21 Assembly. That is not what you intend, I take it, you 



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1 mean by regular bill, by law? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: I think it is only the 

5 General Assembly so I would have to oppose the motion. 
4 MR. MILLER: You don't want the Governor 

g to have the right of veto? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: Not on this question, no. 

7 MR, BROOKS: Not on that question, 

8 MR. MARTINEAU: Well, just say as determined 

9 by the General Assembly then, 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I point out to you that 

11 you hve an apparent inconsistency in that you have 

12 classes based on population would be determined by lav; 

13 but classes based on any other criteria would be deter- 

14 mined by the General Assembly. Do you really intend 

15 that? 

IQ MR. CUAGETT: That is exactly what we intend 

1»7 and we intend to present this as a choice on the basic 

18 question of whether you are going to have the two 

19 alternatives or only one. 

20 MR. BROOKS: Wait, I think there is a 

21 difference in what is being discussed here again and 



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1 that is whether or not there is to be a bill prior to 

2 the classification stating what the basis of class if ica- 

3 tion shall be or whether or not there shall be a deter- 

4 mination by the Legislature in the bill establishing 

5 classification which will be subject to gubernatorial 

6 veto as to what the basis will be and that basis being 

7 census or as population or otherwise, 

8 In other words, it is only one legislative 

9 step and not two. 

10 MR. SYKES: The section now provides that 

11 whatever the basis and whoever determines the basic 

12 classification may only be provided by law so the net 

13 result of what the Legislature does is going to be 

14 subject to gubernatorial veto. 

15 MR. BROOKS: That's right. 

15 MR, SYKES: I see no point to making any 

17 distinction. 

18 MR, BROOKS: Except there is no need to have 

19 two legislative processes, one establishing the basis 

20 of classification and then determining classification. 

21 MR. SYKES: I don't see this requires you 



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1 to go through two. The General Assembly makes a 

2 determination. It makes a determination which is 

3 implicit when it writes its bill. 

4 MR. BROOICS: That is what I read in here. 

5 MR. SYKES: And the words by law provide 

6 whatever protection has to be provided because the final 

7 product is subject to scrutiny and doesn't make any 

8 difference whether the basis as such is reviewable or 

9 nonreviewable . 

10 MR. BROOKS: That's right. We dorft disagree. 

11 MR. SYKES: You can't separate the two of 

12 them in any meaningful way. So I suggest the question 

13 poses, the section poses no policy question. 

14 THE CR'MRMAN: VJouldn't the proper language 

15 be classes of counties based upon population as deter- 

16 mined by the most recent United States Census or upon 

17 other criteria as may be provided by law? 

18 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection to that change? 

20 Strike out the parenthesis, strike out such and strike 

21 out as are determined by the General Assembly to be 



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1 appropriate, close of parenthesis. The first part of 

2 the sentence would read classes of counties based upon 

3 population determined by the most recent United States 

4 Census or upon other criteria as may be provided by 

5 law. Any further question with respect to paragraph B? 
Paragraph C? 

7 DR. BURDETTE: Yes, I am mixed up. The 

8 text on Page 13 is different from the text on Page 2. 

9 Do we ignore Page 2? 

10 MR. BROOKS: Yes, the only difference is 

11 that which was in the parenthesis. So just use the 

12 latter version. 

13 MR. mRTINEAU: Any other changes? I have 

14 been using the front part exclusively. 

15 MR. BROOKS: That's all. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: I must confess I ran afoul 

17 of this in here by surprise. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Then paragraph C. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: Public general laws may be 

20 enacted which shall in their terms and in their effects 

21 apply without exception to all counties or to all 



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1 counties in a class. No county shall be exempted from 

2 any public general law. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Applicable to other 

4 counties in its class. Add that at the end of the 

5 section. Any questions? Mr, Clagett, I have one concern 

6 about this and that is couched in the language which is 

7 used here, it does not to me convey the notion of 

8 absolute prohibition against local laws. Is there any 

9 difficulty in saying that the General Assembly may enact 

10 only public general laws which shall and so forth. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: No, I think that would tend 

12 to clarify what the Committee is thinking here. 

13 MR. MARTINEAU: Is that really the 

14 definition a public general law is one enacted by the 

15 Legislature? A public local law is one enacted by 

16 soma other lesser civil division, 

17 DR. BURDETTE: Not now. 

18 THE CHAIRMi^N: I don't think that is the 

19 definition. The definition is the area in which the 

20 law applies rather than the body which enacts it. We 

21 are saying that local laws shall be enacted only by the 



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1 local governing authority but it doesn't follow from 

2 the definition. For instance, the Legislature here to - 

3 fore has enacted every year local laws for the county 

4 and the city. 

5 MR. MARTINEAU: That is correct, but we are 

6 saying here that the Legislature can only enact public 

7 local laws. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: We intend to say that but 

9 my point is I don't think we have said it. 

10 MR. SYKES: I am not sure we intend to say 

11 that because that is what raises the question of the 

12 interconnection between C and D. The Legislature may 

13 legislate for intergovernmental authority and it may 

14 legislate applicable to a regional and it is conceivable 

15 that those lines may or may not be identical with the 
15 classification of counties and you have got to provide 

17 for some kind of relationship between the intergovernmental 

18 authorities and regions on the one hand and counties on 

19 the other if they are all to co-exist. 

20 THE CRAIRMAN: Could you accommodate that 

21 notion by a phrase such as except as may be otherwise 



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1 specifically provided in this Constitution, the 

2 Legislature shall enact only public general laws and 
5 so forth. 

4 MR. CLAGETT: Of course, what you are cbing 

5 is putting back the very phrase stricken out of 

6 subsection (d) at the first presentation and I might 

7 refer you to the 5th Report where at that time we 

8 said that the General Assembly, now this was the earlier 

9 language, the General Assembly may provide notvjithstanding 

10 any other provisions of this article for the creation 

11 of intergovernmental authorities. 

12 Now notwithstanding any other provisions 

13 of this article had to do with the restriction upon 

14 public local lav7S and provided for an exception. Now 

15 we have moved the provision for intergovernmental 

16 authorities on up into the definition of civil divisions. 
•^rj We do make a provision in subsection (d) of 

18 the 6th Report. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, maybe the decision 

20 before was erroneous. 

21 MR. SYKES: I would suggest the drafting 



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way to handle it is to say the Legislature may enact 
only general public laws. I would like that label to 
stick in the Constitution and then define public general 
laws as laws applicable to and applying without exception 
to all counties or all counties in a class or laws 
which and then specify what kind of power you want to 
give the General Assembly over these civil divisions, 

MR. BROOKS: For the one reason for the 
parenthetical comment in your draft after the first 
printing of it in the text was to take care of the 
problem of the regional governments if that alternative 
were needed. That is why it was parenthetical because 
if that classification is not to be utilized in any 
way in dealing with regional governments or authorities, 
then it is not desirable to have that parenthetical 
material at alio 

THE CHAIRMAN: V/hat parenthetical material 
are you referring to? 

MRo BROOKS: You removed a couple of 
parenthesis and some of the wording around population 
or other criteria just a few minutes ago. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: In Paragraph B. 

2 MR. BROOKS: Yes. It should only be on a 

3 population basis unless the classification is also to 

4 be the same that is utilized if needed to be utilized 

5 for withdrawing powers from the county for the purpose 

6 of granting them to a regional government. There is 

7 one situation where classification would be needed in 

8 regard to authorities and regional governments that is 

9 to withdraw powers and that provision takes care of 

10 that . 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: You are hanging an awful 

12 lot on a pair of parenthesis. 

13 MR, CLAGETT: Where are the parenthesis you 

14 are speaking of? 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Paragraph B. 

15 MR. BROOKS: That is the connection of why 

17 that was in there and the problem that Mr. Sykes 

18 raises is the problem for that provision, whether it 

19 is there or not. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Why wouldn't it be soluablc 

21 by the method he suggests? 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I might suggest -- 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Wait just a second. 

3 MR. BROOKS: Well, you better restate it. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: His solution was to do two 

5 or three things, one to state that the General Assembly 

6 may enact only public general laws and then to define 

7 public general laws as you do here and broaden it to 

8 include laws such as would be passed to carry out the 

9 provisions of Paragraph B. 

10 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, the language of 

11 the 5th Report is the General Assembly shall legislate 

12 for counties only by general laws which shall in their 

13 terms and in their effect apply alike to all counties. 

14 Then I think to all counties in its class would have 

15 to be added there. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Might I suggest that this is 

17 a phrasing problem that I think the intent everyone has 
it clear. V/e are within five minutes of the time I 

19 said we vd uld have to stop consideration of this report. 

20 Can't we pass on? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: We can handle that problem if 



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we have the intent. That is a matter of drafting. 

THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 

MR. SYKES: Excuse me, the next question, 
the one question we haven't resolved is what the intent 
is with regard to the powers of the Legislature over 
these civil divisions and I take it that is in the next, 
that is what you are coming right to. 

MRo CLAGETT: Subsection (d) reads the 
General Assembly may authorize civil divisions other 
than counties and municipal corporations to administer 
single or multi-purpose functions that transcend local 
boundaries and grant to them the power to impose and 
collect revenues, to borrow money, and to collect 
taxes imposed by the General Assembly. Now here the 
General Assembly is not restricted insofar as the 
requirement of public general law is applicable to all 
counties or to all counties in their class. 

MR. BROOKS: I might add, if I may, that I 
believe it was at this point Mro Case suggested that 
this should be amended by adding on the end of what the 
provision now has, or other representative body, recognizi 



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that the tax or revenue may actually be imposed by 
a body other than the General Assembly. 

MR, CLAGETT: And I would agree with that. 

THE CHAIRMAN; Mr. Martineau. 

MRo MARTINEAU: What is the purpose of using 
the word local boundaries rather than saying 
beyond county lines. You are involving more than one 
county. I see no purpose in applying this to just a 
function within a single county. So you obviously mean 
multiple county. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, I think it was pointed 
out earlier that you may have a problem that is within 
a county v;hich is beyond the municipality line and 
can't be solved. 

MR. MARTINEAU: But the county can do that, 
can't they? 

THE CHAIRMAN: That's the policy question. 
That's the reason. 

MRo CLAGETT: There may be a municipality 
divided by a few counties. 

MRo MARTINEAU: It is still a multi-county 



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1 problem then. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: And the General Assembly could 

3 clarify it. The language takes care of either one. 

4 MR. MARTINEAU: It seems to me X a:irrproper 

5 to authorize the Legislature to establish a civil 

6 divis ion which would operate solely within the county 

7 and it is permitted by this section. 

8 MR. SYKES: They transcend municipal lines. 

9 MR. MARTINEAU: Still a county problem. 

10 MR. SYKES: Sure. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: This provision was drafted 

12 at a time when the cities were still to continue under 

13 the General Assembly rather than under the counties and 

14 I would say there, Mr. Chairman, that we will have to 

15 take another look at it and try to resolve that and let 

16 us more or less resolve that one because I v;ould like 

17 to take the little bit of time to get into another phase. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's get this policy question 

19 that Mr. Sykes raises and that is the policy question 

20 as to whether it is intended that the General Assembly 

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governments or any other civil division a power to 
administer single or multi-purpose functions. Is that 
your question? 

MR. SYKES: Well, the question is in effect 
is it to be able to do it without any kind of brake 
which would prevent in effect local legislation so far 
as Ithese units of government are concerned. I don't 
know the answer. There ought to be in my opinion some 
kind of an allowing to classification for counties or 
something that restricts them to granting or withdrawing 
powers generally to authorities and it doesn't permit 
them to do the administrative work for the authorities. 
How to do it, I don't know. 

MR. BROOKS: The concept was by restricting 
the classification system to one and the same one being 
applicable for all purposes, in giving them to either 
authorities or regional governments, the fact there 
can only be one classification system would pretty 
well force a decision in this area by the General Assembl) 
and would serve in itself as a brake upon them from 
actually administering whatever authorities they set up. 



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1 They would need to establish a classification 

2 system that bears more on the population basis. 

3 MRo SYKES: The difficulty with that is 
. 4 that you have got something in here inconsistent 

5 between the two types of agencies. If you are going to 

6 allow intergovernmental authorities, you may need a 

7 tv7o county authority so that it is something that 

8 won't fit into your classification system because you 

9 need three counties for a class and you have to do it 

10 on a different basis and there won't be any limits what 

11 you can do with that. 

12 MR. BROOKS; As Mr. Clagett would say, this 

13 is one of the reasons for this kind of classification 

14 system in that it in effect, somewhat directs the 

15 size of the area to be within a region or for purposes 

16 of a government or an authority. You've got to make 

17 it fit. 

18 MRo SYKES: Then you are really cutting 

19 the flexibility and distrust in the Legislature. I don't 

20 know. If you do that, you still have to say that the 

21 classification requirement would apply then to subsection 



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1 (d) as well as to (c) and it would be the same kind of 

2 classification system and it would only be one kind of 

3 public general law. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: I would be very much concerned 

5 about it that regional governments could be created only 

6 out of three or more counties. 

7 MR. SYKES: I agree it is a problem. 

8 MR.mRTINEAU: Particularly when you say 

9 of a same class and if it is based upon population, the 

10 counties in the class may not be contiguous at all and 

11 you would effectively prevent any county function. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: You are going right back into 

13 the very same area that you had already pulled yourself 

14 out of when you were dealing with our first presentation 

15 and there you V7ill recall that v/e had a phrase, which 

16 are not soluable through interlocal cooperation, and you 

17 couldn't appreciate the definition of that and I 

18 argued then that we were trying to put a brake upon the 

19 use of this pure and we also struck out from that same 

20 original writing, on its o^Tn initiative , or on the request 

21 of one or more political subdivisions , and we ended up 



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1 with just exactly what we have got here after we got 

2 through revising it at that time so that after the 

3 material was stricken, the provision read just as we 

4 have got it here. 

5 Now let me read it as it was originally. 

6 The General Assembly may provide notwithstanding any 

7 other provisions of this article for the creation of 

8 intergovernmental authorities on its own initiative or 

9 on the request of one or more political subdivisions to 

10 administer single or multi-purpose functions or services 

11 which transcend local boundaries are not soluable 

12 through local cooperation. 

13 And then it provides for the power to impose 

14 I and collect revenues and taxes as imposed by the 

15 General Assembly about which we have no dispute. Now 

16 V7hen you got through revising that language you came 

17 up with, and I ask you now to compare it with V7hat you have 

18 in front of you, the General Assembly may provide for 

19 the creation of intergovernmental authorities to administer 

20 single or multi-purpose functions or services which 

21 transcend local boundaires, and there follows the rest 



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1 of the text. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: I submit that the language 

3 that we have here is the one that we are going to have 

4 to adop notwithstanding Mr. Sykes ' fear because I 

5 frankly think your earlier language gave no protection 

6 whatsoever. If the Legislature found it was an insoluable 

7 problem, the court would be stuck with that finding and 

8 if they wanted to legislate. As Mr. Sykes fears, they 

9 will go ahead and do it. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me this is the 

11 answer because you have heretofore approved the 

12 provisions under which the Legislature has full power 

13 over counties, the creation and existence, dissolution, 

14 changes the county lines and full power over classifi- 

15 cation of counties. Having gone that far, it seems 

16 to me that you try to put a block on the power of the 

is 

17 Legislature with respect to regions/ getting yourself 

18 tied into knots and really don't accomplish anything. 

19 MR. SYKES: I don't know whether it is right 

20 to do it but I am not suggesting any diminution of the 

21 Legislature's power to create or structure. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: What you are suggesting is 

2 that the Legislature with its power could create a 

3 region and thereby get power to pass local legislation 

4 and defeat our general prohibition? 

5 MR. SYKES: That's right. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: And I say to you conceivably 

7 this could happen but I think the probability is 

8 very renwte and it is a risk we will have to live with. 

9 I think the alternative is to tie us into Icnots . Any 

10 further discussion of this section? I think V7e*ve got 

11 to suspend consideration of this. 

12 MR, CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, may I ask that 
15 we have five more minutes and in that five minutes I 

14 will confine myself to the time extention. May I have 

15 that five minutes? 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. 

17 MR, CLAGETT: Section 11.03 deals with the 

18 structure of county governments and consists of pages 

19 19, 20, and 21. I vwuld ask that that entire material 

20 be disregarded and in place of it this be substituted. 

21 Before I read what this amounts to in 11.03 



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which I am asking you to cast aside, we provide three 
essential means by which a county can provide for the 
structure of its government. One would be by the 
selection of one of several operations drawn by the 
General Assembly. The other would be through a charter 
board and the third would be by action of the governing 
body and whatever means it specifies. 

Now keeping in mind those three approaches 
insofar as a county adopting a structure of government, 
we ask that you provide the one and same thing with the 
following, or through the following language. 

The General Assembly shall by law provide 
for a plan of organization for the government of all 
noncharter counties of this state which shall become 
effective for each county on January 1 of the, for the 
year following the effective date of this constitution, 
unless prior to that tim.e the governing body of the 
county or the citizens of the county by petition in a 
manner which shall be prescribed by law cause to be 
drafted, submitted to, and have ratified by a majority 
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1 organization. 

2 Until such time as the county adopts a plan 

plan 

3 or the General Assembly/becomes effective, the existing 

4 county government shall have all the rights and powers 

5 herein provided. The plan of organization shall be 

6 amended by the electorate as provided therein and in 

7 the absence of such provision as provided by petition or 

8 recommendation of the governing body and approval of 
S the majority of the voters voting thereon. 

10 THE CHAIRmN: You said in the earlier part 

11 of that draft by the citizens of the county. I assurae 

12 that should be voters? 

13 MR, CLAGETT: That is what is meant. 

14 THE CHAIRmN: And in the last sentence you 

15 said the charter shall be amended. I would take it 

16 should be may be amended. 

17 MR. CLAGETT: The plan of organization may 

18 be amended. Now this language I am indebted to for 

19 this approach, I am indebted to Mel Sykes and Dale 

20 Adkins and Franklin Burdette and Mrs. Kostritsky and 

21 all of us who gathered around last night with Governor 



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Lane and a bottle of skotch and it has the blessing of 
a noble spirit. 

The language will be polished, but in the 
three paragraphs and a half page it takes up what would 
otherwise be three pages of constitutional right. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection to that draft 
from the nonparticipants? 

MR. SCANLAN: I regard it as a flash or is 
it flask of genius. 

MR, CLAGETT: The other tv;o and a half 
minutes I have left of that five deals with Section 11.04 
where we make provision for city governments and there 
we would like to have approval in principle of the 
county providing for the creation and commanding, merging, 
et cetera, of cities. This language I would like to 
have before you in leiu of the language there contained 
and I am now referring to Page 23 of the draft. 

DR. JENKINS; Is this the same source? 

MR, CLAGETT: No. I would like you to 
turn to Page A of the staff memo dated October 24, 1966. 
Alternative two, I think, does give us the language to 



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1 carry out the intent of the Committee and I would like 

2 to read that alternative and have you consider it in 

3 place of the language which appears on Page 23 of the 

4 Sixth Report. The county may provide by public local 

5 law for the creation of any new city within its boundaries 

6 and for methods and procedures of incorporating, changing, 

7 merging, and dissolving them ard altering their boundaries. 

8 No existing municipal corporation shall be dissolved 

9 without its consent or the consent of the General 

10 Assembly by law. 

11 Cities created after the effective date of 

12 this Constitution may exercise only those powers v;hich 

13 are delegated to them by the counties within which they 

14 are located. Cities existing at the time that this 

15 Constitution becomes effective may exercise only those 

16 few powers delegated to them by the counties within 

17 which they are located but they may exercise all of those 

18 powers which they formally possessed until those powers 

19 are withdrawn by the counties within which they are 

20 located V7lth their consent or with the consent of the 

21 General Assembly by law. 



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1 Now I think we can irapiD ve and polish on 

2 the language but I would like to have approval of the 

3 Commission on that basic approach. 

4 MR. mRTINEAU: A question. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau. 

6 MR, MARTINEAU: You don't mean to imply when 

7 you say in your first sentence changing, merging, you 

8 don't D^ean to imply just new cities? 

9 MR. CLAGETT: Yes. I take care of existing 

10 cities in the subparagraph (b) , 

11 MR. MARTINEAU: That doesn't apply to 

12 methods and procedures of changing, merging, and dissolv- 

13 ing . 

14 ^ MR. CIAGETT: You mean existing cities? 

15 MR. H4RTINEAU: Yes. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, I think it does because 

17 it says that they v^ill continue to exercise those powers 

18 which they already have but any new powers can be exercisec 

19 by them only as delegated. 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: They may or may not have the 

21 power to dissolve or to change themselves. You are 



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assuming they have all those powers and I don't think 
that is a correct assumption. 

MR. BOOKS: Oh, no, the assumption is the 
powers they don't have would be for the county to give 
them and those powers as given them by the county would 
be subject to withdrawal by the county without legis- 
lative or consent of the cities. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Might I restate the substance 
of the proposition as I understand it which I think 
would embrace Mr. Martineau's principle and not do 
violence to the one you have indicated. A county may 
provide by public local law for the creation of any new 
municipal corporation within its boundaries and for 
methods of incorporation, merging, dissolving and existing 
any new municipal corporations and altering their 
boundaries but no existing municipal corporation shall 
be dissolved or have any powers presently exercised by 
it withdrawn without its consent or the consent of the 
General Assembly by law. 

MR. CI^GETT: I think that does it. 

MR, BROOKS: That is similar to his first 



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paragraph. 

THE CHAIRMAN; Any dissent from the 
substances of those proposals? 

MRSo BOTHE: I would just comment that 
this (b) sounds like the common law of England. I 
guess the Committee would have a problem finding substitut 
language but I hate to see the powers that exist at the 
time of passage of the Constitution incorporated in the 
new one. I haven't any better language to suggest. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know whether it is 
possible but you may perhaps be able to button down to 
express powers granted to it by act which makes it 
a whole lot more definite. I don't know. Let us suspend 
consideration of this report. 

DR. BURDETTE: Will you note I did dissent 
from it, Mr. Chairman? 

THE CHAIRMAN: From which? 

DRo BURDETTE: The section you just read. 
I don't have a copy of it but my understanding, the 
part I am dissenting from is that the charters of existing 
localities may be changed by count. 



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1 MR. SCANLAN: I would like to be recorded 

2 against that too. That was a little different. 

3 THE CHAIR^iAN: I said no powers could be 

4 withdrawn except with their consent. 

5 DR. BURDETTE: Yes, but I thought, what I 

6 wanted to dissent from, I am not sure, for example, if 

7 the county decided that a town council is going to be a 

8 town council of seven and I didn't want to give that 

9 to the council. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I would amend the substance 

11 of it then, that the existing charter and the powers 

12 exercised should not be amended or withdrawn without 

13 its consent. 

14 >R. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, can I use the 

15 other thirty seconds of my five minutes and deal with 

16 ' Section 11.05 intrastate, inter government^^l agreement, 

Ij 

17 Page 24. 

18 There we provide that any county, other 

19 civil division or municipal corporation may, except to 

20 the extent prohibited by general public law, agree with 

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corporation for the joint administration for any of 
their functions and powers and the sharing of costs 
thereof. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? Any comment? 
I think we will all agree with the conment we made 
when we started this. This is the most difficult of all 
the provisions we have to concern ourselves with. We 
have a number of matters that we simply must act on 
today. I don't want to treat any of them summarily. 

I will try to take up each in the order of 
their urgency. I think the first matter I want to ask 
you to consider and make a decision about is the 
question of whether the Coimiission should or should not 
make a public statement or take a position with respect 
to the 16 constitutional amendments which v7ould be on 
the ballot next month or any of them. I point out to 
you that this is not a question that is easy to resolve. 

At first blush it is seemingly the answer 
to say well, it deals with a matter that we are working 
on and we should express our views. Another opposite 
view is that the Commission is preparing for a convention 



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1 and is not going to review the 16 proposed amendments 

2 and, therefore, should not express any opinion. 

3 Actually neither of those situations quite 

4 ansv;ers the question. It seems to me that the problem is 

5 this. 

6 Almost all and I think perhaps all of the 

7 16 amendments deal with matters that are touched upon 

8 in one way or the other by actions which this Commission 

9 has already taken. The 16 amendments will be acted 

10 upon at the next month's election and, of course, 

11 will be acted upon before the constitutional convention 

12 meets. 

13 If an amendment is defeated and that amendment 

14 embodies not necessarily the same detail but the same 

15 principle as maybe recorrtnended in the draft of the 

16 Constitution, we submit the argument could very vzell 

17 be made and I have no doubt it vjould be made in the 

18 convention that the convention should not adopt this 

19 principle because it has so recently been rejected by 

20 the people. 

21 For instance, one of the constitutional 



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1 amendments proposed deals with the creation of an inter- 

2 mediate appellate court. If that should not be 

3 adopted, the argument could very well be made that the 

4 judiciary article which we propose and which proposes 

5 an intermediate appellate court should be amended so 

6 as not to provide for an intermediate appellate court 

7 because the people have so recently rejected it. On 

8 the other hand it seeras to me that an almost similar 

9 argument can be made if a constitutional amendment is 

10 approved and if it varies in detail from what we 

11 propose but touches on the same area. 

12 The argument might then be the people have 

13 so recently approved this that the convention ought not 

14 now change it. It seems to me V7e are in a position 

15 therefore to try to suggest that the amendment should 

16 be adopted or should not be adopted. On balance it seems 

17 to me that we perhaps should at least point out in a 

18 public statement the extent to which an amendment is 

19 either consistent or not consistent with action which 

20 we contemplate. Mr. Miller. 

21 MR. MILIAR: Mr. Chairman, wouldn't we be 



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X hunting for trouble? Aren't we in a position to say that 

2 regardless of what the people of Maryland decided with 

3 respect to amendments to the present Constitution that 

4 we are offering a new start and we are making it as 

5 interlocking and compact and so forth as we can and 

6 we are regardless of what they do in amending an 

7 ancient document, it seems to me we don't have to say 

8 what they did to that document, because all of the 

9 various provisions in our proposed Constitution will be 

10 interlocking and a principle might be there for the 

11 present Constitution that V70uldn't apply to our new 

12 draft and I don't think we have to get into that. 

13 THE CHAIRmN: Mr, Sykes. 

14 MR. SYKES: I would suggest that the state- 

15 ment that ought to be made by the Commission and the 

16 statement ought to be made is a statement that we take 

17 no position with respect to the individual constitutional 

18 amendments for the reasons suggested by Congressman 

19 Miller, that if these pass, they will pass in a different 

20 form of detail in any case and unless we say right now 

21 that we regard these amendments as additions to an old 



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1 Constitution and as standing on the basis that the old 

2 Constitution is still the instrument of government and 

3 that it is an entirely different document and different 

4 theory and different job from the one we have got, we 

5 are going to get hung up in the convention, one way or 

6 the other. It will be very hard to endorse a provision 

7 in substance but not in form and say we reserve the 

8 right to change it because once the Legislature, the 

9 public has spoken and we have indicated that we set some 

10 store by V7hat they say insofar as our job is concerned, 

11 we are in trouble . 

12 MRS, BOTHE: We have two different problems 

13 here. Some of these amendments, most of them involve 

14 the mess the old Constitution is in and we are advertising 

15 for a new Constitution. Things like abolishing the 

16 Commissioner of the Land Office, V7hich the Committee on 

17 Miscellaneous Provisions mentions in its report. On 

18 the other hand, the intermediate court of appeals itself 

19 is built into our proposal which the Committee seeks 

20 to abolish, not in the form it will appear on the 

21 amendment, but the principle involved is an integral part 



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1 of our judiciary article and one if defeated at the 

2 pools would have some devastating effect on the recommen- 

3 dations the Commission has already passed on. I don't 

4 know that it is wise. I don't think the proposal is 

5 in any danger but I don't know it is wise for us to ignore 

6 propositions of this kind which we do intend to perpetuate 

7 in the new Constitution. I think it will be distinguished 

8 from the housekeeping ones that are necessitated by 

9 the condition of the old Constitution. 

10 DR, BARD: I think we should make it 

11 clear, Mr. Chairman, that these items that are being 

12 dealt with are those that have been given consideration 

13 by this body but that ours is a unitary approach and 

14 not a segmented one and that within this unitary approach 

15 we have dealt with these problems. It would occur to 

16 me that this is the way we should make known our 

17 position. I think too, however, that as individuals, 

18 not as members of this Commission, we might feel free 

19 to hold a position in regard to one or more of the 

20 items but I do think it would be wrong if we came out, 

21 let us say, with a listing of where we stand or a 



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1 kind of credo in respect to what has taken place in 

2 regard to constitutional amendments, 

3 Our main task is that of the unitary approach, 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett. 

5 MR, CLAGETT: It is entirely possible 

6 that all of our good work can be ignored by the 

7 convention and we will still continue to go forward 

8 under the present Constitution and with the amendments 

9 thereto that are coming up for vote on November 8. 

10 I think that a statement could be made which could 

11 reconcile the purposes and objectives of this Commission 

12 and not in any way detract from the passage by the 

13 electroate of amendments with which we agree in principle 

14 if not in exact substance and form of approach that we 

15 should not take any action or make any statement which 

16 would tend to cause people not to vote upon those 

17 amendments by reason of thinking that they are going 

18 to be taken care of by this Commission, and, therefore, 

19 that they don't have to worry about the problem. So I 

20 do feel strongly that we should go ahead and make a 

21 statement but make a statement reconciling the purpose 



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1 of the Commission and not detract from the passage of 

2 the particular amendments, 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 
4r Mr. Brooks. 

5 MR. BROOKS: As the Chairman mentioned, the 

6 question isn't really very clear-cut, black and white. 

7 Whichever the position we take, there are some recommen- 

8 dations such as the intermediate court of appeals and, 

9 for instance, there is a proposal that the General 

10 Assembly be permitted to establish some salary. Precisely 

11 the same recommendation adopted by this Commission 

12 which would be very significant from the standpoint if 

13 they were to be defeated, the general reaction at the 
14- convention would be that I think Mr. Case expressed 

15 yesterday that having so recently been defeated and he 

16 was arguing this in regard to something else, the 

17 general tendency would be to say that the people 

18 expressed their thought on it. On the other hand, it 

19 is rather difficult to support such without also opposing 

20 some that do not actually accomplish any betterment of 

21 the present document. 



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1 For insta nee, there are several that make 

2 special exception of certain counties that are nothing 

3 but special legislation that absolutely flout everything 

4 that has been discussed here in the last 24 hours about 

5 special lesiglation. That in themselves would have to 

6 be considered an evil as far as the Constitution is 

7 concerned and that they exclude a particular county 

8 from being covered by a constitutional provision. 

9 There are a number of different tilings where you might 

10 say there is another class of these amendments which 

11 really don't make any difference one way or the other 

12 what happens to them insofar as they probably would not 

13 affect the new draft because the type of material dis- 

14 cussed would not be considered in a new Constitution, 
IQ DR. JENKINS: I think the Commission should 

16 remain silent on this question. 

17 MR. SCANLAN: I agree with Dr. Jenkins. 

18 We remain silent when a more pressing and important 

19 issue is before the voters, namely, the referendum on 

20 the convention itself and we wisely stayed in the 

21 background and let an independent agency, an independent 



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1 group speak in effect for us, I think we should remain 

2 quiet. I am afraid that rightly or wrongly some will 

3 think we are exceeding our authority and presenting our- 

4 selves as Constitutional seers and it could only lead 

5 to resentment and I don't think the political impact of 

6 this group is very significant on these issues anyway. 

7 MR. MARTINEAU: Mr. Chairman, I think we 

8 ought to make a statement that only one designed to 

9 protect our proposals from any action taken by the 

10 electorate which would be that V7e would merely explain 

11 some of the amendments are consistent with our proposals, s 

12 we are inconsistent but that really in the longrun none 

13 of them should have any bearing on the convention because 

14 everything will be considered in a completely different 

15 frame of reference. 

16 DR. BURDETTE: I prefer to remain silent, 

17 under the general principle that I prefer to reply 

18 even after we finish our work. I don't want to 

19 associate myself with any type of nonpartisan political 

20 organization by public appointment. I am putting it 

21 another way ,that as a citizen I might campaign for a 



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1 new Constitution after it had been adopted by this 

2 group, but I very much doubt if we should turn ourselves 

3 into an organization to espouse a cause as an organiza- 

4 tion, a Commission rather. 

5 DR. JENKINS: Are you prepared to receive 

6 a motion? 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Let me make this obser- 

8 vat ion before you propose a motion. The only reason I 

9 do it is because I might forget it. Mr. Martineau made 

10 a conunent that would bother me. I am afraid that if 

11 we were to make a statement that some of these amendments 

12 were consistent with what we v/ere doing and some were 

13 not and it really didn't make any difference to us 

14 because we are dealing with a document that might be 

15 the kiss of death on all of them. 

16 It might create a feeling of people, 

17 well, there is no use bothering about that. 

18 MR. mRTINEAU: I didn't mean that. Certainly 

19 we don't V7ant to say that these matters shouldn't be 

20 voted on intelligently because the convention after all 

21 may not even adopt a new Constitution but I think we 



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1 ought to in protecting our work say that the action is 

2 taken by the electorate insofar as the convention is 

3 concerned should not be considered important. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: That is what troubles me, the 

5 idea that that is going to make a lot of people feel 

6 their vote on this is wholly wasted and unnecessary. 

7 People don't want to waste a vote and worry a brain 

8 with this. 

9 DR. JENKINS: I move that the Commission not 

10 take any position on the amendments to be voted on at 

11 the November 8 election. 

12 MR. SYKES: Second it. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

14 DR. BARD: I would like to have us issue 

15 a statement along the lines of making it clear that we 

16 believe it is significant to have the voice of the 

17 public on this occasion as on other occasions without 

18 in any sense elaborating as to the items on the ballot 

19 and then indicate that our approach has been unitary 

20 in its view and that W2 find the voice of the public valuab[Le 

21 we believe, in connection with the convention, just that 



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1 kind of a statement. 

2 MR. BURDETTE: All but your last paragraph. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That kind of a statement 

4 would invite just the kind of difficulty. 

5 MR, MILLER: You want tO' offer :an amendment? 

6 DR. BARD: I am not offering an amendment 

7 to this but I take it for granted that the way the 

8 motion was made this is possible because we are not 

9 taking a position. 

10 DR. JENKINS: No, I say remain silent. 

11 DR. BARD: Oh, you said silent. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, are groups 

13 like the Junior League and the League of Women Voters 

14 and those who are active interested groups going to 

15 allow us to remain silent? 

16 THE CKAIRI'IAN: Yes, I think they will. Let 

17 me ask Dr. Jenkins this and make a statement in connec- 

18 tion with it. I take it that you would not intend your 

19 motion to prevent the Chairman of the Commission or any 

20 members of the Commission giving background information, 

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I did with the editorial, one of the editors on the 
Sun, not taking a position but indicating the extent 
to which these amendments may or may not be consistent 
with what we have done, 

DR. JEIJKINS: No, my motion would not 
exclude that so long as it did not purport to be the 
view of the Commission. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

THE CHAIRMAN: On the record again. 

MR, CLAGETT: I think in the light of the 
motion that has been made not excluding comparative 
comment would indicate the advisability of the Commission 
as a whole not making any statement and consequently, 
I am going to reverse my position and go along with 
the motion but with the understanding that individual 
members of the Commission and the Chairraan of the 
Corrraission will be free to make comment by way of 
comparison with the work of this Commission and the 
effect of the amendments. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, this will not be, if I 
understand the motion, any comment for publication on 



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1 MR, CIAGETT: Exactly. 

2 DR. BURDETTE: As a Commission. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: As a Commission or I would say 

4 as a member of the Commission. 

5 DR. BURDETTE: Yes, in the name of the 

6 Commission. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Any further discussion? 

8 All right, then you are ready for the question. The 

9 question arises on the motion that the, with respect 

10 to the 16 proposed constitutional amendments which 

11 will be on the ballot next month, the Commission and 

12 its members will not, as a Commission or officially 

13 as members of the Corrmission, take any position at 

14 all and v.'ill remain silent. All those in favor signify 

15 by saying aye. Contrary? No. The ayes have it, 

15 Now I think perhaps the next matter that we 

17 should clear up is the matter of the extraordinary 

18 votes in the Legislature. 

19 You have a memo? 

20 DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, might I interrupt 

21 to say I have to leave shortly. Are you going to 



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1 announce any further meetings or any further business? 

2 THE CHAIRM/VN: No, I think we will have to 

3 do as I indicated at the beginning, ask you to keep 

4 the date of November 21, ask you not to swear at me 

5 when you get a call. 

6 Nov; each of you, I think, has a copy of 

7 a memo from Mr^:. Wiegand to me, dated October 19. And 

8 on the upper right corner it says extraordinary vote 

9 of the Legislature provisions in proposed articles of 

10 new Constitution. Now these, I think, represent the 

11 complete list. Section 8, the extraordinary vote for 

12 what was formerly called the emergency law, that is 

13 a law that is subjected to a referendum would take 

14 effect notwithstanding was three-fifths. It is not 

15 noted on the memo. Three-fifths was the vote required. 
15 DR. WINSLOW: Does this then provide that 

17 under the present agreement there is no such thing 

18 as a suspension of a law on the basis of a petition. 

19 Is that what the decision was? 

20 THE CHAIP.MAN: No, the decision was that 

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1 petition if it /was passed originally by a three-fifths 

2 vote but if it was passed by less than the three-fifths 

3 vote, it will be suspended by the filing of a petition. 
^ MR. GENTRY: But only if the petition is 

5 filed before the law goes into effect. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Now the next one is under 

7 the executive department, in case of a tie vote the 

8 Governor is selected among the candidates having 

9 received the tie by a majority vote. Declaration that 
the Governor is disabled is a two -thirds vote. Passing 

11 over a veto, three-fifths vote. Now the next section, 

12 next comment is really not an extraordinary vote. 

13 Mr. Power has just flagged for us that the, that this 

14 deals v;ith reorganization of the executive department 

15 and that we have provided that the General Assembly 

16 has 60 days to consider executive order and they become 

17 effective unless disapproved. This is by an ordinary 

18 majority vote. Nothing in the judiciary article, 

19 In the extension of credit, two- thirds vote. This is 

20 not to borrow money you recall but to lend credit, the 

21 last sentence of that Section 34, this was an amendment 



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added by the Coranission. 

MR. MILLER: A question, Mr. Chairman, 
Didn't we in considering practically all of the later 
extraordinary votes just arbitrarily pick one or the 
other, wasn't it announced that our progress would, 
that we probably would have one uniform figure? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, and that is the purpose 
of this discussion to decide whether we want it 
uniform and if not, what vote we want in each case. 

These actions heretofore were only 
tentative. 

MR, MILLER: I would like to move at this 
point that we make it uniform regardless of whether 
it is two-thirds or three-fifths. 

THE CHAIRli^N: Wait a minute and let me go 
through and then I will recognize you. Legislative 
Department is a two-thirds -'..^i-vote i •: to keep the 
Legislature in Session an extra 30 days, three-fifths 
vote not two-thirds for the Legislature to call itself 

into session. 

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we left last night. 

MR. MILLER: Without any argument as to 
whatever the policy is. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Subpoena power, two -thirds 
vote, expulsion of a member, two-thirds vote, and 
removal after impeachment by two -thirds vote. Now, 
Mr. Miller, the reason I wanted to wait until we got 
to th6 end before this question of uniform vote, uniform 
number for extraordinary votes was that you might want 
to make an exception in the case of explusion of a 
member or impeachment which are truly extraordinary 
situations. Dr. Wins low, 

DR. WINSLOW: Might I suggest there is not 
included here because I think the Commission has not 
yet acted on it, an extraordinary vote for the proposed 
amendment to the Constitution. I imagine that will come 
along. 

THE CIIAIRM^.N: That*s true, the Conmission 
indicated the extraordinary vote should have the same 



vote. 



MR, SCANLAN: We had the instance this 



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morning of an extraordinary vote required on the 
local subdivision order. 

MR. MILLER: That was voted down. 

MR, CLAGETT: That was the creation of 
counties. 

THE CHAIRmN: Then we better add that. We 
didn't put a number. We particularly said extraordinary 
votes. 

MR. CLAGETT: That's right. Creation of 
counties and amendments. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Creation of counties and 
amendments. Now, Mr. Miller. 

MR. MILLER: I move that we make them 
all the same for simplicity regardless of whether 
it is two-thirds or three-fifths. 

THE CHAIRMAN: All without exception. 

MR. MILLER: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

MR. HOFF: I second. 

THE CHAIRMAN: He is saying uniformity and 
then later decide what it is. 



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1 MR. HARGROVE: I will second. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: When is it proper to make 

3 an amendment to that? 

4 MR. GENTRY: That is VThat I want to make, 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Wait a second and let Mr. 

6 Miller speak to his motion. 

7 MR. MILLER: I really made my speech. I 

8 think it is more simple not to have to look up in the 

9 book every time you want to find out how many votes 

10 are necessary and it is a difference betv/een 10/15ths 

11 and 9/15ths and I think we can well afford to make 

12 them all the same whichever way the Commission v/ants. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: I will recognize to move the 

14 amendment . 

15 MR. GENTRY: I would like to move the 

16 motion be amended to make it two- thirds vote for every- 

17 thing across the board. 

18 THE CHAIRl-lAN: You will accept the amendment, 

19 Mr. Miller? 

20 MR. MILLER: I think we ought to decide the 

21 first question first. I will accept the amendment but 



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1 if it fails — 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Who will second it? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: I will second it. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Then the motion now before 

5 you is to provide that all extraordinary votes be two- 

6 thirds. Mr. Marfcineau. 

7 MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to draw a 

8 distinction between those votes which remove someone 

9 from office or has the effect of thatj in other words, 

10 I believe that there should be a higher vote for 

11 declaring the governor unable to perform his duties, 

12 expelling a member. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Higher than two-thirds. 

14 MR. MARTINEAU: No, higher than the three- 

15 fifths. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is now two-thirds. 

17 MR. HOFF: The motion is now two-thirds. 

18 MR. MARTINEAU: Well, I want a compromise 

19 between the two. I v/ant everything three-fifths 

20 except two-thirds for removing a person from office, 

21 impeaching, and so forth. 



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1 DR. JENKINS: I don't think there is any 

2 particular virtue in consistency in this instance. 

if 

3 Mr. Brooks pointed out this morning that/some members 

4 are not present and some members seats are not 

5 filled that three-fifths does provide a substantial 

6 measure of protection. I would favor three-fifths for 

7 everything except the removal and impeachment procedures 

8 which would be t\<7o-thirds. I will vote against this 

9 motion. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller, I take it when 

11 you say your motion is for a two- thirds vote we are 

12 talking as we have provided throughout on two-thirds 

13 of the elected members not two-thirds of those present. 

14 MR. MILLER: Well, of course, I think it 

15 should be members present but we killed that. We are 

16 now demanding a constitutional majority, as I understand, 

17 for even the simplest bills and I am only interested 

18 in the fact that it doesn't seem to me it doesn't have 

19 much practical difference whether it is 9/15ths or 

20 10/15ths but it would simplify things if we had the 

21 same percentage all the way through. 



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1 MR. MITCHELL: With all due respect, I am 

2 going to disagree with Mr. Miller and I think Mr. 

3 Martineau states ray position. I think that, for 

4 example, the provision that we considered this morning 

5 that provides for the relocation of county lines, my 
feeling that in the future, 15 or 20 years from now, 

" that isgping to be a very, very important provision and 

8 to require a two-thirds vote of those present seems 

9 to me to really nullify it completely, and I think 

10 that that should be, for example, that should be smaller 

11 than the idea of removing or voting to remove somebody 

12 from office. 

13 I cite that by way of example, but I believe 

14 a distinction should be drawn because some of them are 

15 more important than others as far as flexibility is 

16 concerned . 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

18 Mr. Sykes. 

19 MR, SYKES: I also think two- thirds is 

20 too restrictive if there is to be uniformity and there 

21 probably ought to be uniformity because there are very 



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different policies involved in these. The only interest 
that has been stated so far in uniformity is that you 
should be able to know without looking up what vote 
you should have. Well, you have to look it up in 
order to determine whether an extraordinary vote is 
needed in the first place and I don't think there is 
any real value to be served by uniformity. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, it is my 
recollection that, in the course of putting two-thirds 
or three-fifths, all along we kept saying we will make 
it the same when we get to the end, let's just put 
this doxim or put that down. So I thought we had 
already decided on a concept of uniformity. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, I don't think so. The 
question was put earlier in the course of our decisions 
as to whether we should establish that principle, but 
we decided not to and to wait until we reviewed the 
whole thing at the end. 

DR. BARD: I merely want to offer some 
figures because it really is not an easy question to 



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I deal with. When you talk about two-thirds of the 
^ House of Delegates, you are talking about 96 members. 
3 When you talk about three-fifths, you are talking about 
4r 84 members. And there is a big difference between the 

5 two and when you are talking about the entire body. 

6 I wish there were some way it could be 

7 uniform but we ought to recognize that when we moved 

8 away from the Legislative Department Committee's 

9 recommendation, namely, that it be a percentage of 
10 those in attendance that we were in a sense taking 

II away power from the Legislature and I think we will 

12 have to be a little bit careful that we don't take 

13 even more away if this figure is too high, because you 

14 don't generally get more than about 115 there present, 

15 so it is really many more than two- thirds. 

16 THE CHAIR1'1\N: Any further discussion? 

IV Are you ready for the question? The question arises 

18 on the motion to provide that all extraordinary votes 

19 shall be two-thirds of the members selected to each 

20 house of the Legislature except in the case of 

21 constitutional amendments in which case it would be twc 



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1 thirds of the voters voting thereon. A vote aye is 

2 a vote in favor. 

3 MR. mRTINEAU: Wait a minute. 

4 MRS. BOTHE: I didn't understand the 

5 reference to constitutional amendments. 

6 THE CHAIRFAN: I am sorry. I stated it 

7 quite incorrectly. It would be the same thing, two- 

8 thirds, proposing constitutional amendments, two-thirds 

9 of the elected members of each house for constitutional 

10 amendments as well as ever thing else. A vote aye is 

11 a vote in favor of a uniform two-thirds requirement. 

12 All in favor, please signify by a show of hands. 

13 Contrary? The motion is carried nine to seven. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: School children will have less 

15 work. 

IQ MR, SCANLAN: And the Legislature will have 

17 less power. The way that came to a vote, there might 

18 have been some in favor of the principle of uniformity 

19 and others favor the principle of two-thirds that 

20 produced the small majority. I suppose it is impossible 

21 to go back again and see how many, is it too late to 



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move to amend the motion by substituting the phrase 
three-fifths for the phrase two-thirds? 

MR. CIAGETT: I would second the motion. 

DR. BARD: I second it too, 

THE CHAIRMAN: If we are going to follow 
our procedure, I think you would have to move to 
reconsider, and if anyone seconded the reconsideration ■ 

MR, MILLER: I made the original motion and 
will move to reconsider if that would help it because 
I would rather have it three-fifths across the board, 
but I still think the principle of uniformity is 

important. 

MRo MARTIITEAU: Can we vote on the principle 

of uniformity? 

MR. SCANLAN: I would move to reconsider 
that aspect of it that -- I move that the Conuiission 
move to reconsider its previous vote. 

MR. MILLER: I second it. 

THE CHAIRM;\N: This is submitted without . 



debate. 



MR. MILLER: I can make the motion. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor of 
reconsidering it, signify by saying aye. Contrary, 
no. I am in doubt. All those in favor, signify by a 
show of hands. Contrary? The reconsideration is 
eleven to fifteen. We are back now on the motion. 

The motion is that the extraordinary vote 
be two-thirds of the members elected. 

DR. BAPvD: It is three-fifths. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The motion that is before the 
group is two -thirds. Now it is up for amendment. 

MR. SCANLAN: I v/ould like to amend the 
pending motion by substituting the phrase three-fifths 
for the phrase two- thirds. 

DR. BARD: I second. 

THE CH^IRM^N: Do you accept the amendment, 

Mr. Miller? 

MR. MILLER: I accept it. 

MR. MRGROVE: I accept it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is that the 
uniform vote be three-fifths extraordinary vote. Any 
further amendment? 



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MR. MARTINEAU: You are voting on the 
assumption. I wish we would vote on the assumption 
first. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I am submitting a motion. 

MR. MARTINEAU: That the uniform be and I 
wish we would vote first on whether it is to be uniform, 

THE CHAIRMAN: I can't control the motion. 

DR. BARD: Let's get the motion out first. 

MR. MITCHELL: Is this the motion on the 
uniformity itself? 

MR. CLAGETT: No, this is the motion on 
three-fifths . 

THE CHAIRMAN: The first motion that Mr. 
Miller made was that v7ithout reference to numbers the 
extraordinary votes be uniform. Somebody, and I have 
forgotten who, suggested an amendment to make it two- 
thirds and he accepted the amendment. He has now 
accepted a further amendment to make it three-fifths. 
The motion that he has proposed as amended now is that 
the extraordinary vote in all cases be three-fifths of 
the members elected. 



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1 MR. MARTINEAU: I would like to amend that. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: The action was to be taken 

3 on a previous motion. Mr. Martineau. 

4 MR, MARTINEAU: I would like to move that 

5 the motion be amended that with respect to those votes 

6 declaring the Governor unable to carry out the duties, 
^ expelling a member of the House, and removing a person 

8 who has been impeached, that the vote be two-thirds. 

9 MR. MITCHELL: I will second. 

10 MR, SYKES: Can I make a suggestion? I 

11 would like to ask unanimous consent to suspend all 

12 rules and to cut the Gordian knot by asking the consent 

13 of the body to present two questions. First are we 

14 to have a uniform number and if it is agreed that we 

15 should have a uniform number, then take a vote, all 

16 those favoring three-fifths, all those favoring two- 

17 thirds. It seems to me otherwise we are going to 

18 be here a long time. 

3^9 MR. JENKINS: I will second that if you add 

20 without debate. 

21 MR. SYKES: Yes. We have had the debate. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: This takes us right back 
to Mr. Miller's original motion. But what is your 
pleasure? 

MRS. BOTHE: Let's do it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection? 

MR. MILLER: Unanimous consent. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The first question arises on 
the question of whether the extraordinary vote 
shall be uniform, that is, the same number required in 
all cases. A vote aye is a vote in favor of uniformity 
in all cases. A vote no is a vote against 
uniformity. Are you ready for the question? All those 
in favor of uniformity, please signify by a show of hands 
Those opposed. The motion carries, nine to eight. 

MRS. BOTHE: I move that the vote be by 
three-fifths. 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Second the motion. 

THE CHAIR.MAN: Any further discussion? 

DR. BARD: Question. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Did you want to say something, 
Mr. Gentry? 



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1 MR. GENTRY: Just to save another motion, 

2 if you are going to vote no, it means two-thirds. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: A vote aye is in favor of 

4 a three-fifths vote in all cases. I would assume a vote 

5 no is opposition to three-fifths and, hence, that you 
favor two-thirds. All those in favor of three-fifths, 
please signify by a show of hands. Contrary? Twelve 

8 to five. Is there any further discussion of the 

9 question of extraordinary votes? 

10 MR. GENTRY: No. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: What was the vote on uniformity, 

12 nine to eight and twelve to five? 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Let's move to a 

14 consideration of the Sixth Report of the Committee on 

15 Judiciary. 

16 MR. M^RTINEAU: Just as a matter of intro- 

17 duct ion, I would like to say this is not the Sixth 

18 Report of the Committee on the Judiciary because the 

19 Committee didn't see it before it was sent out as the 

20 Sixth Report. I haven't heard any disclaimers from the 

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1 Committee but it wasn't originally. The reporter and 

to 

2 I have redrafted this to try/ suit the action taken 

3 at the last meeting of the Commission , and we didn't 

4 have time to submit it to the members of the Committee. 

5 I would like to run through very quickly 

6 and point out the changes from the Fifth Report. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: I might say as we each 

8 preface our reports with the same remark, that we have 

9 just looked at it, we do not mean to cast any reflection 

10 upon the hard work and efficiency of the executive 

11 director because I went by his office on Friday afternoon, 

12 and I saw the mounds of material there and I saw this 

13 active little colored boy running from one end to the 

14 other, grabbing a sheet here and grabbing a sheet there 

15 and punching them together. I was very much impressed 

16 by the hard work being done. 

17 MRS. FREEDIANDER: Hear, hear. 

18 MR. MARTINEAU: ' May I begin? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, go ahead. 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: The first change is one that 

21 actually isn't indicated in here, but it was missed in 



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1 reprinting this. On Page 2, Section 3(b), referring 

2 to the appellate court in the second line, the second 

3 word from the end, the word associate should not be 

4 in there, it should be no fewer than five judges. 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Where is this? 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: Page 2, Section 3(b), strike 

7 the word associates. The first change indicated here 

8 is on Page 3 to be in Section 4(b). In the second 

9 line of (b) , the word who has been c hanged to which. 

10 4(b) on Page 3, composition, the Superior Court shall 

11 be composed of the number of judges by law, which shall 

12 be rather than who shall be. 

13 MR, BROOKS: Changes since you received the 

14 last draft of this are double underscored. Otherwise, 

15 their similarities are the same. 

16 THE CHAXRMA.N: Or stricken out. 

17 MR, MARTINEAU: The deletions have a line 

18 drawn through the middle. The additions have a double 

19 underscore. The next change is also on Page 3, Section 

20 5(b). You can see the line there drawn out. This 

21 was taken out by unanimous consent, referring to the 



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division, there shall be a division of the District 
Court for each district. 

I am really despondent that this is coming 
out, since we spent two months finding out what this 
meant. 

THE Ca^IRM\N: I have a question about 
(c) even because there has been no change because in 
reading it over again, I am not sure that the last 
sentence is clear on what I understand is the intent of 
the Committee and that is the Commissioners shall only- 
have thepower of arrest warrants and to determine in 
what amount of bail is required. 

MR, MARTINEAU: This is what I intended. 
Frankly, a question that was raised yesterday as to 
whether these should be the only p>owers that they may 
have, the Committee has never considered that, so I 
think we will have to go along at this point that that 
is what they may do. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I thought this had been 
discussed. I was going to suggest to clarify it you could 
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1 MR. SYKES: Will the judges raise the 

2 question, what about the power to approve bail? If 

3 you make it too restrictive, he won*t even be able to 

4 grant bail, 

5 MRo MILLER: It wouldn't in accordance 

6 with rule solve any problem, 

7 MR. SYKES: I think it would. 

8 THE CHAIRmN: I think the discussion that 

9 I recall hearing -- and maybe I am thinking of a 

10 different place where the discussion was — was that 

11 the Commissioners were not intended in any sense to 

12 be assistant judges, and they were not to be given 

13 the authority to have preliminary hearings, that this 

14 was still a judicial function. 

15 MR, MARTINEAU: That is correct. 

15 THE CHAIRMfVN: And, therefore, this statement 

17 that the Commissioners may issue arrest warrants and 

18 determine whether and what amount of bail is required 

19 is intended as a complete statement of their jursidiction. 

20 I think you could without too much difficulty get a phrase 

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1 nonissuance of arrest warrants and over the determination 

2 of whether bail was required, a release on bail or 

3 approval on bail or whatever the language is. 

^ It seems to me it ought to be made clear, 

5 since this was our intent, that the Commissioners were 
not to be committing Magistrates in any sense. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: I move we add the phrase: and 

8 shall have no other authority. 

9 THE CE-MRi'li^N: Would we, instead of that, 

10 ask the Committee to draft appropriate language to carry 

11 this into effect? 

12 MR. MARTINKAU: I think that can be done 

13 more simply, so we will undertake to do that. 

14 THE CHAIR2'IA.N: Go ahead, Mr. Martineau. 

15 MR. MARTINEAU: The next change is on Page 5, 

16 Section 8, the fourth line from the bottom, the word 

17 types is changed to classes. 

18 The next change is below that in Section 9(a), 

19 the word preferred has been changed to adopted. 9(a) 

20 was adopted by the Commission rather than preferred by 

21 it. 



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1 MRS.FREEDLANDER: May I say for the 

2 sake of our record that we put an X through the other 
5 alternates, 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: No, they will appear in > 

5 the report as alternates. 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: Next change is Section 12, 

7 Page 10. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Again I have to back up, 

9 if you will, Page 8, a change was made in the Committee's 

10 draft at someone's suggestion to change the phrase 

11 the office of judge to a judicial office. I think 

12 the reason for it was because we had both justices and 

13 judges. 

14 MR. MARTINEAU: To be consistent, which 9(a) 

15 says to be eligible for nomination and appointment to 

16 judicial office and the change was made. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: It troubles me because I am 

18 not at all sure that a Commissioner or Master doesn't 

19 hold a judicial office, and we certainly don't mean 

20 these provisions to apply to anyone except judges. 

21 MR. MARTINEAU: That's correct. We went 



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1 through this. We originally had the office of justice 

2 or judge, and we changed it to judicial office. 

3 THE CHAIRmN: But not all the way through 
^ because we still use the term in a few places at the 

6 end, for instance, retirement. Section 11, each judge 

6 shall retire -- I suggest that this could create an 

7 ambiguity because I am not certain that a master is not 

8 the holder of a judicial office. 

9 MR. mRTINEAU: My preference would be, to 
10 avoid any confusion, to consistently use the V7ord 

H judge throughout, that there would no t be this 

12 confusion, 

15 DR. WINSLOW: But you cannot say a vacancy 

14- in a judge, so what you will have to say is a vacancy 

15 in the judgeship. 

16 THE CHAIRmN: You can say the office of 

17 judge, which they have had before. 

18 DR. V7INSL0W: Is the term office of judge 

19 any more restrictive than a judicial office? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I think so. 

21 MR. MARTINEAU: I don't know that it is. 



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1 There would be less difficulty with it. 

2 MR.SYKES: How about a vacancy on the 

3 court? 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure of that. 

5 .MRS. BOTHE: I was going to bring up a 
different subject. 

THE CRAIRMAN: Can we leave it to the 

8 Committee to remove the doubt? 

9 MR. MARTINEAU: Yes. 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I want to back up a little 

11 further, because since, on Page 6, the Commission, I 

12 suppose everyone recall^,raade the amendment, which is 

13 underlined on Page 6, about a person to be eligible could 

14 either be the person who practiced law in or vias a 

15 resident of a particular area. 

16 Several lawyers have pointed out to me that 

17 . ths requirement on Page 30, the Superior Court and 

18 District Court have at least one judge, there be at 

19 least one resident judge in each of those two cases, 

20 that might create some confusion now that we have pro- 

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1 district or area from which he was appointed. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: I believe we discussed 

3 this, and the net result of all the provisions is that 

4 if the Superior Court judge is the only judge for a 

5 particular county, he must, if he doesn't live in it when 

6 he is appointed, he must live in it after he is appointed. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: The Commission discussed 

8 this, and the distinction was pointed out as one 

9 between the residence requirement of a person eligible 

10 to be appointed judge and a requirement after he was 

11 appointed judge. > 

12 MRS, BOTHE: Apparently the intent in having 

13 a judge is not to have him resident but to have him 

14 available in the court house. I gather that no one is 

15 particularly interested in v^here he lays his head dovm. 

16 MR. KARTINEAU: You have got to be able to 

17 get hiin when his head is on his pillow. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: If his head is on his pillow 

19 in Baltimore County, it is no more difficult to get him. 

20 MR. KARTINEAU: It may or may not be. 

21 He may be just a few minutes from the Pennsylvania line. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: We are not getting a thing 

2 in the record, I am sure, by this. This was discussed 

3 thoroughly before, and there were a number who pointed 

4 out that it was highly desirable, entirely apart from 

5 the question of availability of the judge, to have a 

6 person of the rank of judge of the Superior Court in 

7 each county. 

8 Some had referred to it as a matter of sub- 

9 stantial assistance in keeping the peace. This, in any 

10 event, was discussed. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: There was a remark down 

12 here, Your Honor, that having a Judge available, even 

13 upon his pillow, keeps him very circumspect. 

14 MR. SYKES: Mr. Chairman, can I make one 

15 addition here. The judicial conference and the State 

16 Bar Association Committee that reviewed this expressed 

17 some concern that the power given to Commissioners in 

18 connection with arrest warrants and bail might be 

19 read to encroach upon the power of the Superior Court 

20 judges. 

21 It is my understanding that it is the intention 



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1 of the Committee that there is to be no such encroach- 

2 ment, and I would like it recorded that the Commission 

3 concurs in that. There is no limitation whatever 

4 intended in that paragraph, 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think this is clear from 

6 the earlier debate, and I would anticipate the 

7 report would make it abundantly clear that the 

8 Commissioners are merely additional officers to perform 

9 this function. Next section. 

10 MR. MARTINEAU: Page 10 and Page 11, we have 

11 revised substantially Section 12 and, therefore, we 

12 have deleted completely the old Section 12 and have 

13 inserted -- 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: May I back up again. In 

a 

15 Section 11, this may be purely/stylistic change, but do 

16 you mean to authorize retired judges to perform temporary 

17 judicial duties or do you mean to aurhorize retired 

18 judges temporarily to perform judicial duties? I take it 

19 it is the latter. 

20 MR. MARTINEAU: You are correct. This is 

21 why we have the Committee on Style. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: No, that could be more than 

2 style. 

3 MR. MARTINEAU: We at least didn't split 

4 the infinitive. 

b THE CHAIRMAN: Section 12, 

6 MR. MARTINEAU: As I said, Section 12 is 

7 rewritten in an attempt to meet the votes taken at the 

8 last meeting of the Commission. The first sentence, 

9 I believe, is exactly the same and also the second 

10 sentence is the same. Third sentence was changed from 

11 requiring that a pension be provided to merely 

12 providing that a pension, once it is granted, may not be 

13 reduced. So the language we are proposing says: Any 

14 provision for the payment of a pension to a retired judge 

15 or his surviving spouse, in effect during his continuance 

16 in office, shall not be reduced. This would mean that 

17 whatever the pension, the highest the pension would be 

18 while he was in office, that would be the pension to 

19 which he was entitled during the rest of his life and his 

20 widovz for the rest of her life. It does not require that 

21 a pension be granted, which was the vote of the Commission 



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at the last meeting. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. 

MR. MARTINEAU: The next sentence, I believe, 
is exactly the same as in our previous report. The 
only other change is in the beginning of the next 
paragraph in which we attempted to include what the 
Conxnission voted last time, that is, no judge during 
his continuance in office -- * no judge while receiving 
any pension probablyshould be hereunder, Mr, Chairman -- 
shall engage in the practice of law, et cetera. 

In other words, the prohibition contained 
in that second paragraph would apply to a judge receiv- 
ing a jurisdictional pension as well as a judge actively 
on the Bench, 

MRS. BOTHS: Mr. Chairman, is it the 
present law that a retired judge receiving a pension 
can't make contributions to political parties? 

MR. MARTINEAU: I don't believe it is, 

MRS, BOTHE: This is putting an added 
restriction on retired judges, and I think they are 
restricted enough as it is. 



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MR. MARTINEAU: Frankly, in drafting this 
I must say this is my thought: That a retired judge 
should be put under the same prohibitions as the judge 
in office. He is still occupying, he has the status of 
a retired judge, being paid by the state for his 
service as a judge, and while he is doing that, it seems 
to me that he should no t be able to engage in any of 
the partisan political activities and carry with him 
the status of being a retired judge and being paid by 
the state for his services as such. 

Of course, you may disagree with this and 
only want to put in some of those prohibitions against 
the retired judge. 

MR. FAILE: A judge who is running for 
the office he ho Ids, may he take part in a partisan 
political campaign? I see an ambiguity there. I should 
think if he is running for the judicial office he holds, 
he must necessarily take part in a partisan political 

campaign. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Not under this. 

MR. MARTINEAU: This is a noncompetitive 



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1 election. 

2 THE CHAIRmN: He is not running against 

3 anybody under this Constitution. 

4 MR, HAILE: And make no contributions or 

5 anything? 

6 MR. MILLER: I would like to raise a 

7 voice. It would seem to me under the wording here, 

8 a retired judge, drawing his pension, v7ould be prohibited 

9 from contributing to a policital party. The word here 

10 would not, and I don*t think he should be deprived of 

11 the privilege of giving money to a friend who might be 

12 a candidate in any party. Would this prevent him from 

13 doing that? 

14 MR. MARTINEAU: He is taking part in a 

15 partisan political campaign, I would think. 

16 MRS. EOTHE: Mr. Chairman, if I recall the 

17 debate on this area in the last meeting, I don't believe 

18 that the Commission voted to tie the hands of the judges 

19 receiving pensions to the extent that the Committee has 

20 done. I can see why the Committee did it this way, 

21 because it is much simpler to combine the retired with 



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the active judges, but remember they are only receiving 
a pension, and they are not subject to political 
influence in their decisions because they are no longer 
on the Bench. 

MR, mRTINEAU: They may be because they 
can be recalled. 

THE Ca^IRMAN: Let her finish. 

MRS. BOTHE: We have a provision in the 
Constitution which makes them potentially recallable 
only in the discretion of the Chief Judge of the 
Court of Appeals, who might refrain from recalling a judge 
who is actively engaged in political activity and I, 
without wanting to make a very extensive provision in 
the Constitution for pensioned judges, because I don't 
think really it is worthy of this, I am aware that the 
Commission voted at the last meeting to continue pro- 
hibitions on the judges receiving pensions, I would still 
feel that the Comnittee should curtail these restrictions. 
I certainly don't think they are of constitutional 
significance when a man is receiving a pension who is 
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1 his time and his restricted pension income -- 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to make that 

3 motion? 

4 MRS. BOTHE: I move that the language be 

5 reworded so that the only restriction on a retired 

6 judge receiving a pension is that he may not practice 

7 law. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: May I suggest to you another 

9 question that perhaps could be raised in the same motion. 

10 I am bothered by the fact this is stated in terms of 

11 prohibiting the doing of certain things while receiving 

12 a pension rather than of saying that you shall not 

13 receive a pension while you do certain things. I am 

14 wondering whether the idea here was that if a judge did 

15 any of these things, he forfeited his pension, or only 

16 during the time he did them. 

17 MR, MARTINEAU: Just during the time he did 

18 them. 

19 THE CHAIRI^N: It would be clear if you 

20 phrased it in terras of saying that no judge, while he 

21 does these things, should have a pension. 



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1 Mrs. Bothe, could you combine that thought 

2 in your motion? 

3 MRS. BOTHE: Yes, I think inherent in 

4 that is the necessity to separate judges in office from 

5 retired judges receiving pensions; otherwise, it is not 
going to be possible. I would propose that the language 
be that no retired judge shall receive a pension while 

8 engaging in the practice of law. 

9 THE CHAIRmN: Is there any second? 

10 MR. GENTRY: I'll second that. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion? 

12 Comment, Mr, Martineau? 

13 MR. MARTINEAU: No, I believe I stated the 

14 reason for it. I think it is proper to apply the same 

15 prohibitions to a judge receiving a pension. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett. 

17 MR. CLAGETT: I only want to point out that 

18 no contribution or to hold any office in a political 

19 organization or take any part in any partisan political 

20 campaign is also a protection to the judge as well as 

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1 MR. SYKES: I want to point out that judges, 

2 like Eva Peron, always retain their titles from their 

3 former positions, and the allov;ance of active politicking 

4 by somebody who is called Judge in the course of 

5 the political campaign is inconsistent with the kind of 

picture of the judiciary that we are trying to create 

and the kind of status we are trying to create here. 

some 

8 I think we are making / kinds of glorified 

9 monks out of the judges v^hich is as it should do. They 

10 have a noble and sacred calling, and I don't think 

11 their image should be soiled. I think the provision 

12 as the Committee has it, with the possible exception of 

13 tidying up the language that the Chairman suggested, 

14 is what should stay as a matter of policy. 

15 THE CrUIRM^N: Any further discussion? 

16 ^filS. BOTHE: I would like to point out that 

17 this is an additional limitation that has not so far 

18 existed in the Constitution or the laws. That is the 

19 first thing. 

20 The second thing is that the protections 

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1 so much as the influence of the judge while engaging 

2 in legal matters. 

3 Thirdly, the pension is nowhere near the 

4 salary of . the judge and the judge is not otherwise 

5 occupied after his retirement, so that a prohibition on 

6 his becoming engaged in political activities or even 

7 contributing to the campaign of his political friend 

8 is in my mind an unreasonable one. 

9 Foirthly, the objection that is raised 

10 because this man is susceptible to recall I don't 

11 believe a very rational one because he is saying that 

12 the Chief Judge of the Court of Appeals would tarnish 

13 the image of the judiciary by recalling the man who had 

14 engaged in these activities. I am sure we have ample 

15 protection against that. 

16 MR. HARGROVE: The only thing that bothers 

17 me is that there are so many situations you can have 

18 where you don't have a judge in office or a retired 

19 judge, instances where judges decline to run, for 

20 example, and go back into law practice. It says shall 

21 engage, it lumps both the judge in office and the 



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1 retired judge. I think they almost have to be separated 

2 because they are two different animals. 

3 For example, a defeated judge, it is possible 

4 under this for a defeated judge to receive a pension 

5 if he has once been elected. If he stays any length 

6 of time after the first election, he receives his pension. 

7 Therefore, I would suggest perhaps that maybe we should 

8 separate these in the interest of dealing with them 

9 as separate things. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: This raises an interesting 

11 question , and I will ask Mr. I4artineau. Is a judge 

12 who has been rejected by the voters a retired judge? 

13 MR. HARGROVE: It is more realistic than 

14 one who declines to run after being elected to one term. 

15 I think that is a real possibility. 

15 MR. MARTBIEAU: The question isn't whether 

17 he is a retired judge. The question is whether he is 

18 a retired judge receiving a pension and whether 

19 the Legislature is going to give that man a pension I 

20 don't know. If he is receiving a pension, this applies, 

21 I would say. 



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1 DR. BARD: Mr. Chairman, does the 

2 pension vary in terms of the number of years? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, it does. 

4 DR. BARD: Would it be possible for him to 

5 receive an extremely small pension under the circumstances 

6 which v/ere just stated because he had been in for such 

7 a short time and certainly it wouldn't be worthwhile for 

8 him to take the pension and thus give up all of the 

9 possibilities in practicing , law, et cetera. 

10 MR, MARTINEAU: He only gives up the pension 

11 during the time he is doing these things. 

12 MRS. BOTHE: I propose a substitute in my 

13 motion, which might answer Mr. Hargrove's suggestion. 

14 That is, to substitute for the word retire the words 

15 former judge or some word which would take in anybody 

16 as receiving a judgeship, pensioned by virtue of 

17 judicial service. 

18 THE CHAIR>L^N: Are you ready for the 

19 question? The question would arise on the motion to 

20 amend this section so as to provide that no judge during 

21 his continuance in office shall engage in the practice 



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1 of law, run for elective office other than the judicial 

2 office he may then hold, et cetera, or take part in any 
5 partisan political campaign or receive, except as herein 

4 provided, any remuneration for his judicial service, 

5 and to provide that no retired or former judge shall 

6 receive a pension v^hile engaging in the practice of 

7 law. 

8 MR. SYKES: Pension for judicial service. 

9 THE CE^IRMAN: Pension for his judicial 

10 service while engaging in the practice of law. Are you 

11 ready for the question? All those in favor signify by 

12 a show of hands . 

13 MR. HARGROVE: Would you state that again? 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: What we are saying is that 

15 the only limitation on the retired or former judge is 

16 that he shall not receive a pension while he engages in the 

17 practice of law. A vote in favor of this motion would 

18 permit the former judge to engage in all these other 

19 activities and receive his pension also. 

20 DRo BARD: I am against it. 

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1 of the requirement that as to a former judge, a retired 

2 judge, he shall have no limitation except that he does 

3 not receive a pension while he is engaged in the practice 

4 of law. He could engage in political activities with- 

5 out affecting his pension. 

MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Chairman, I happen to 

believe that if a judge earns a retirement and retires, 

8 he can do anything he V7ants and still collect his 

9 pension. Which way would I vote on this? 

10 MRS. BOTHE: Yes. 

11 MR. MITCHELL: This is my belief. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: You would vote no and make 

13 a motion afterwards to change the section. 

14 MRS, BOTHE: That is why my motion does not 

15 go to that point. It does not touch the area I am 

16 referring to, and we cannot reverse the past action. 

17 THE CFtAIRM'\N: A vote aye is a vote in 

18 favor of having only one limitation on the retired or 

19 former judge, and that is he should not receive a pension 

20 while he practices law. All those in favor, please signify 

21 by a show of hands. Contrary. The motion is lost six 



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1 to eight. 

2 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Mitchell's vote was cast 

3 under a misapprehension from the Chair. 

4: THE CHAIRMAN: Why the misapprehension? 

5 MRS. BOTHE: Because he was instructed a vote 

6 no would enable him to propose a motion allowing any 

7 retired judge to engage in all activities, whereas, 

8 the fact is that no such motion would be entertainable. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess that would be true 

10 except as the motion to reconsider. Mr. Mitchell, under 

11 the circumstances, do you want to change your vote? 

12 MR, MITCHELL: No, Mr. Chairman, I understood 

13 this question of whether or not a retired judge can accept 

14 a pension and still practice law has been thoroughly 

15 debated, and I believe that I recall that and I believe 

16 that I will not open it up. 

17 THE CHAII^^N: Any further discussion as 

18 to this section? Now, Mr, Martineau, is there any more? 

19 MR. MARTINEAU: No, that is all. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: In the second paragraph of 

21 Section 14, since we have eliminated divisions in the 



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1 next to the last line, strike the words for each division 

2 and after district court say in each district. 

3 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Strike and also, Mr. 

4 Chairman. 

5 MR. MARTINEAU: I agree with that. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: No, the and stays, there shall 

7 be a chief deputy clerk of the Superior Court in each 

8 county and of the Superior Court in each district. 

9 That concludes consideration of this report. Your 

10 Committee still has to report on the troublesome ques- 

11 tion of the continuance of judge's salaries and pensions. 

12 I would like to take up now the question 

13 of impeachment. You have two memoranda, tv70 research 

14 memoranda dealing with the question of impeachment. 

15 I have a comraentary that discusses the 

16 debates in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 and 

17 that this is very interesting because it indicates 

18 quite clearly, as is stated in the memoranda, that the 

19 whole question of impeachment and v/hether it could be 

20 exercised by the Legislature at all under the doctrine 

21 of separation of powers was seriously questioned, that 



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could not be exercised by the Legislature, 

In any event, there was apparent unanimity 
of opinion that in order to give the legislative branch 
impeachment power, it had to be put in the Constitution. 
Most of the debate centered about the question of who 
should impeach and who should try the impeachment. 

It is pointed out in the memoranda there 
were a number of different alternatives suggested such 
as trial by the Supreme Court and other devices. It 
seems to me that we cannot do this, on the basis of 
this research, rely on any inherent power of 
impeachment. Therefore, we must provide for impeachment. 

Now, Dr. Bard, your Committee hasn*t had 
too much opportunity to go over this . 

DR. R^RD: Yes, we did. Vie went over this 
last night. This Section 16 of our report represents the 
only item, Mr. Chairman, concerning which we were asked 
to give further deliberation and rewrite. That is Page 
5, the Seventh Report of the Committee on the Legislative 
Department. I shall read it as we did it last night. 

The House of Delegates shall have in the cases 



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of high crimes and malfeasance in office the sole power 
of impeachment, but a majority of the members must 
concur. The impeachment powers shall extend to all 
elected officials, judges, and other civil officers of 
the state. All impeachments shall be tried by special 
tribunal of 12 judges appointed by the Senate from among 
the judges of the various state courts. Any person 
impeached shall be convicted only upon the concurrence 
of three-fifths of the special tribunal. Judgment shall 
be removal from office and may include disqualification 
from holding any office of public trust. 

THE CHAIRMAN: What is three-fifths of twelve? 

DR. BARD: The only reason I included the 
three-fifths -- last night we said two-thirds, and we 
V7ere very careful. 

MR. MILLER: Let's make it 15 judges. 

DR. BARD: Since Congressman Miller put 
that proviso in, would that meet with your pleasure? 

THE CHAIRI-IAN: I have no feeling about it. 

DR. BARD: That is the same as the United 
Nations Court. 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: Could you read that again? 

2 MR. GENTRY: We don't have it before us, but 

3 I heard words like high crimes and convicted of. 

4r THE CHAIRMAN: Let's do this. Let's read it 

5 again and, if you would, please, at each sentence let's 

6 discuss it as though it were a section. 

7 DR. BARD: And let me add vze had a good deal 

8 of debate last night in regard to such terms as high 

9 crimes, and once you fool with that, you've got -- 

10 MR. GENTRY: What do you mean by it? 

11 DR. BARD: You have misdemeanors and you 

12 have all sorts of legal terras. We decided this was 

13 the only phrase that would cover it. This is a v7ord of 

14 art, abstract art. The House of Delegates shall have, 

15 in cases of high crimes and malfeasance in office, the 

16 sole power of impeachment. I will stop there. That is 

17 not the complete sentence. 

18 MR. MITCHELL: I would like to have a defini- 

19 tion of a high crime in this context. 

20 MR. MILLER: I can only say the Federal 

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1 away with misdemeanors because of its unfortunate 

2 connotation in Maryland where some misdemeanors are -- 

3 and we meant high crimes and we thought that was enough 
4r to say. 

5 MR. MITCHELL: Would this include larceny? 

6 MR. HOFF: Petty larceny. 

7 MR, GENTRY: Does nonfeasance mean malfeasance 

8 or all feasance? 

9 DR. WI^?SL0V7: I think we said that misfeasance 

10 and malfeasance are included under high crimes because 

11 they are illegal acts. Nonfeasance is an unwillingness 

12 or may be the result of an unwillingness to do something 

13 which ought to be done. 

14 For instance, if a comptroller, an appointed 

15 comptroller is a rascal but the Governor refuses to 

16 dismiss him. In this case we uould say the Governor is 

17 guilty of nonfeasance and therefore the impeachment could 

18 apply to the Governor for this unwillingness to act. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: That concept is worrying me. 

20 • MR. HOFF: Me to. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you mean that the Constitutii)n 



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vests in the Governor a discretion to remove or retain 
an executive officer, and if the Legislature thought 
that he should exercise the discretion by removing the 
officer, it v7ould be an impeachable offense not to do 
so? 

MR. MILLER: That was our thought. 

MR. HOFF: That would open up unlimited 
doors. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That would take away from 
the Governor the discretion that is vested in him, 

MR. MILLER: We fully agreed, but suppose 
this man is a complete rascal? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Why not impeach him? 

MR. MILLER: He is not an elected officer. 

THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me that is a 
back hand way to get at the problem. Why do you limit 
yourself to executive officer then if you feel he should 
be subject to removal other than by the Governor? 

MR. WINSLOW: I had suggested that impeachment 
ought to go to chief appointed officers of the government. 
It was felt by the Conmittee, as I remembered, it should 



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1 be limited to elected officers. 

2 MR. MILLER: They didn't know where to put 

3 the period on appointed officers because you impeach a 

4 notary public. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: But it seems to me that you 

6 could provide, as I think some constitutions do, 

7 that the impeachment power should extend to department 

8 heads who would be appointed, assuming that the merit 

9 system would provide the necessary machinery for hearing 

10 and whatnot for the removal of anybody below a department 

11 head. 

12 DR. BARD: We actually do, Mr. Chairman. 

13 The next sentence would make it clear, for example, 

14 impeachment powers shall extend to all elected 

15 officials, judges, and other civil officers of the 

16 state, which means we do have the privilege the V7ay we 

17 have worded it to carry out the impeachment. 

18 MR. SYKES: Mr.' Chairaian, a review of Mrs. 

19 Freedlander *s memorandum indicates that the Committee 

20 came out with a provision that is like none of the models. 

21 The models which are summarized at Page 7 and 8 of her 



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1 draft give two basic types of choices. One type is 

2 a very generalized word such as misconduct and mal- 

3 administration and that obviously lends to the impeaching 

4 authority and the impeaching tribunal a broad power of 

5 construction. The other type tries to define the 
grounds of impeachment more clearly. They do not adopt 
the formula adopted by the Committee, but some 

8 representative samples are corrupt conduct in office 

9 or for crimes. Some include habitual drunkenness, wilful 
neglect of duty, and treason and bribery. 

H I think that what we have to do is resolve 

12 whether or not we want a very broad definition such as 

13 misconduct or a broad categorization and, if not, what 

14 ought to be the specific grounds. I suggest that vvhat- 

15 ever we decide, the vagueness of high crimes and non- 
16 administration, especially as interpreted by the Committee, 

17 is not a separable solution. 

18 THE CR-VIRM^N: Dr. Bard. 

19 DR. BARD: We spent a good deal of time 

20 talking about elaborating the specifics such as habitual 

21 drunkenness. We felt that it was not well to set forth 



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possibilities within this frame of reference, on miscon- 
duct, for example, or corruption in office. These are 
rather difficult to get hold of without putting them 
within the context of the situation. We did seek, Mr. 
Sykes , a more generalized category. Perhaps we didn't 
hit upon a good one in connection with nonfeasance, but 
it is very difficult to get a generalized category other 
than high crimes. Would you have one? 

MR. SYKES: I don't know v;hat a high crime 
means unless it means a crime involving some element 
of moral terpitude, which I could understand. 

MR. GENTRY: In the election article for 
disenfranchisement we said serious crime as provided 
by law. I offer that. 

THE CIL^IRMAN: May I make a suggestion or 
an observation. It seems to me that what we have done, 
thi-nking broadly of the Constitution, is to confer on 
tho. Governor full power to remove at his pleasure people 
above the merit system in rank. We conferred on the 
judiciary full power to remove judges for misconduct or 
nonperformance of judicial duties. 



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1 So that as to those t\i70 branches of the 

2 government, we are concerned with impeachment only in 

3 an extraordinary case, only in a case where the Governor 

4 has not acted to remove a man for whose conduct he is 
going to be held responsible or where the judiciary has 
not acted to remove a judge whose conduct is such that 
he ought to be removed. 

8 I suggest, number one, that that is going 

9 to be a most unusual and a very rare case. In the 

10 judiciary I call call your attention to the fact that 

11 the last impeachment of a judge in Maryland was just 

12 before 1867, 1864 or something. In the Legislative 

13 Department, therefore, is the only area where you do not 

14 have a provision already for the rem.oval of persons in 

15 office except for the provision for expulsion of a 

16 member from the Legislature. 

17 MR.SYKES: The Governor himself. 

18 THE CR^IRM^N: Or the Governor himself. 

19 This being the case, it seems to me what you are con- 

20 cerned with in impeachment is not an added punishment for 

21 one who is convicted of some other crime. V/hat you are 



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1 concerned with here is only removing from office a person 

2 who has demonstrated that he is misusing the office or 

3 not performing the duties of the office. If these 

4 principles are correct, would it not be proper to limit 

5 impeachment to cases of misconduct in office? This 

6 would mean that you would not remove a governor who v;as 

7 guilty of some other offense, petty larceny or even 

8 larceny if it didn't involve the state funds, but his 

9 punishment for that offense would be left to the law 

10 just as that of any other citizens and his removal by 

11 impeachment would be limited to misconduct in office. 

12 This suggestion has its limitations because 

13 you could then continue in office a Governor who was a 

14 convicted thief. But I suggest to you that if so, and 

15 he was sentenced to imprisonment, he could probably be 

16 impeached for failing to perform the duties of 

17 his office. 

18 MR. MITCHELL: I believe you said misconduct, 

19 I am also concerned in this process of no conduct. It 

20 is not doing the job. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I think misconduct in office 



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1 is broad enough to encompass not only the affirmative 

2 act but the failure to act. But I would have no objection 

3 at all to using some terra. 

^ MR.SYKES: Wilful neglect of duty. 

5 MR. HARGROVE: Mr. Chairman, I would have 

6 some serious concern about the nonconduct in 

7 office, because as long as we have a two-party system 

8 and it is conceivable you can have a governor of a 

9 different party. This can become a rather serious 

10 political question there. I would think that the 

11 failing to perform the office is something which the 

12 voters ought to be concerned with. I think the General 

13 Assembly can very well move under our Constitution even 

14 if the Governor does not perform his job. So I think 

15 there is very little danger that this is going to be 

16 a real serious probleia except if v/e include it. 

17 MR. MILLER: Didn't we have a case rather 

18 recently in Baltimore County where a judge justwouldn't 

19 do any work? That wasn't easy to handle. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: No, but you have a provision 

21 in which it can be handled. 



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^ MR. MILLER: In the judicial proceeding, 

2 if we had an officer Chat wasn't a judge that did the 

3 same thing. 

^ MR. HOFF: He resigned by reason of threat 

5 of impeachment. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: He retired. 

7 MR. HARGROVE: You can operate without one 

8 official perhaps. The General Assembly can operate by 

9 passing laws without the Governor acting really if he 
doesn't act within a certain time. They can act for him. 

^^ MR. MILLER: I don't think we thought of 

^^ that particular measure as applying necessarily to a 

13 governor. It could apply, but we felt there ought to 

14r be some provision for taking care of a person that 

15 just went off on a drunk and didn't attend to his job. 

16 That is not a high crime or necessarily even a misdemeanor. 
IV THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: I suggest where the failure to 

19 act is of such serious dimension as that, it would be 

20 misconduct, where if it were merely a failure to act 

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1 wouldn't be impeachment, that we ought to leave it to 

2 an affirmative definition rather than a negative one. 

3 THE CR^IRKAN: Mr. Mitchell. 

4 MR. MITCHELL: I am going to move that 

5 impeachment under this section new under discussion 

6 embrace the officers mentioned in the Cotrmittee's 

7 report but be limited to cases of misconduct in 

8 office and wilful neglect of duty. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard. 

10 DR. BARD: I want to call your attent5.on — 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second. Is there a 

12 second to the motion? 

13 MR. SYICES: I will second that. 

14 MR. MILLER: Speaking as one of the rather 

15 reluctant draftees, I have no objection to the words 

16 as used here, but I don't think they go far enough. 

17 I think we ought to have high crime or some word of 

18 art in there. 

19 MR. MITCHELL: I will add the word treason. 

20 DR. BARD: May I read, Mr. Chairman, from 

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1 The President and Vice President and also officers of 

2 the United States shall be removed from office on 

3 impeachment for and conviction of treason, bribery, or 

4 other high crimes. 

5 DR. BARD: Yes, we didn't want to include 
misdemeanors because we thought that would get us into 
difficulty. But the point is that the President, too, 

8 Mr. Chairman, under the illustrations you have indicated 

9 could be tried by law apart from Congress. We had the 

10 same feeling about the Governor , that there needs to be 

11 some possibility for taking care of a situation when you 

12 have an absolute scoundrel. It may not occur but 

13 once in 200 years . 

14 MR. HARGROVE: That was tried once and 

15 failed, I believe, didn't it? 

16 THE CHAIPvMAN: Is there a second to Mr. 

17 Mitchell's motion? 

18 MR. SYKES: I will second it and offer an 

19 amendment , 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 

•21 MRi. SYKES: I would like to amend it to read 



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1 serious crimes or serious misconduct in office. I think 

2 that this would include all of the things that we have 

3 been talking about. I think the Federal provision 

4 on misdemeanors really didn't mean misdemeanors as 

5 opposed to felonies. In the 18th Century it meant 
misconduct, and now it means something else. 

7 THE CHAIRMA.N: Mr. Mitchell, would you 

8 accept the amendment? 

9 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any further 

11 discussion? 

12 MR. MILLER: Question. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is that the section 

14 be amended so as to authorize impeachment for serious 

15 misconduct. You didn't say in office. 

16 MR. SYKES: Yes, I did. 

■^rj THE CHAIRMAN: Serious misconduct in office 

18 and serious crimes. 

j9 MR. SYKES: The other way around, serious 

20 crimes or serious misconduct in office. 

21 MB.. MITCHELL: And wilful neglect of duty I 



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1 believe is also in there. 

2 MR. SYKES: If it was serious and if it 

3 was wilful neglect, this would be encompassed by 
^ misconduct. 

5 MR. HOFF: It doesn't hurt to put it in 

6 there. 

V THE CHAIRMAN: I would think so, Mr. Mitchell. 

8 The question arises on the motion to provide that the 

9 impeachment shall be limited to conviction for serious 

10 crimes or I should say serious misconduct in office. 

11 Are you ready for the question? 

12 DR. BARD: Question. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: All those in favor, please 

14 signify by a show of hands. Contrary. The motion is 

15 carried, tvjelve to nothing. Any further discussion? 

16 MRS. BOTHE: I don't think there is a quorum 

17 here. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: There are fourteen here. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: I will vote for it, so that 

20 makes it thirteen. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: The quorum is here. 



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DR. BARD: But a majority of the members. 

MR. HOFF: In the second sentence did you 
start that by saying the impeachment power shall extend 
to -- 

DR. BARD: I haven *t finished the first. 
MR, HOFF: I know, but you don't extend the 
power to these. 

DR. BARD: Shall embrace. 

MR. SYKES: No, they are subject to impeachment 

THE CHAIRmN: I think you have to turn the 
sentence around. 

DR. BARD: Subject to the impeachment power. 
Good point. Shall I finish the second part? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

DR. BARD: When a majority -- 

THE CHAIRl^lAN: Who is subject to impeachment? 

DR. BARD: That is in the second sentence. 
But a majority of the members must concur. I must say 
here that there was some difference among our Committee 
members so that I wish you would pause just a moment to 
consider it. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean difference as 

2 to more than a majority? This is just the indictment 

3 so to speak. Does anyone want more than a simple majority? 

4 Mr. Hoff. 

5 MR. HOFF: I would move that three -fifths 

6 vote be required. 

7 MR. MITCHELL: Second. 

8 THE CHAIRxHAN: The motion is that the provi- 

9 sion be amended so as to provide that impeachment be 

10 by a vote of three-fifths of the elected members. Is 

11 there any discussion? Those in favor signify by saying 

12 aye. Contrary, no. The ayes have it and it is so 

13 ordered. 

14 DR. BARD: Now the second sentence. 

15 MR, SYKES: Can I make one more suggestion 

16 on the drafting. I think rather than say the consent 

17 of three-fifths of the m.embers should be required, it 

18 ought to just say upon concurrence. 

19 THE CHAIRI-LAN: The v7hole sentence should be 

20 redrafted and the second sentence. We are not passing 

21 on the phraseology. 



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1 DR. BARD: Subject to the impeachment power 

2 for elected officials, judges, and other civil officers 

3 of the state, and this comes almost verbatim from the 

4 recommendations of the two memoranda. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I am troubled about other 

6 civil officers of the state because it is not definitive 

7 enough for me. Couldn't limit it to head of departments. 

8 MR. MARTINEAU: Gubernatorial appointees. 

9 MR. MILLER: How about a member of the 

10 State Roads Conmission or the Police Commissioner? They 

11 ought to be subject to it. 

^2 DR. BARD: We were troubled but couldn't 

13 hit upon anything else. What is there besides adminis- 

14 trative boards and heads of departments as defined in 

15 the executive officer? 

16 THE CHAIR>L:\N: I suppose it is one of the 

17 things where it is the best you can do, and you will have 

18 to leave it to further definition. Are there any further 

19 suggestions for change? 

20 MR. SYKES: The word public officer is a well 
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1 do is to incorporate all the learning associated with 

2 those words . 

3 MR. HARGROVE: Your real problem here in 

4 leaving it undefined is that there are so many built-in 

5 dangers, there are certainly for any serious problem in 

6 office such as bribery, accepting of funds, and things 

7 of that sort. I think the criminal statute certainly 

8 takes care of them. On the other hand, a person who is 

9 incompetent to come under this definition — and 

10 yet that is really the responsibility o f the appointing 

11 party. He has to accept that responsibility and accept 

12 the detriment attached to it. 

13 That is one of the problems I would find 

14 with the language of public officers. When you get way 

15 down, I know of situations recently where you had a 

16 notary public who might have accepted a seal without 

17 the person being present. These are the t hings that 

18 require thought, and it seems to me we are putting in 

19 some built-in political problems. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: What could you suggest other 

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1 MR. HARGROVE: I don't know. I don't 

2 think it should be in there at all. These are the 
5 things that are built into any type of government, 

4 incompetency is built in. You have to rely on the 

5 Governor to appoint good people. Any crime committed 
there, the laws take care of it. 

MRS. BOTHE: Could I suggest that \ie ask 

8 the Committee that question? It seemed to me when we 

9 reviewed that report we had a clear picture of who 

10 the people would be besides the heads of departments, 

11 and if V7e should limit in some way, we should. We are 

12 not talking about an officer that comes under the executive 

13 MR. mRTINEAU: How about local officers? 

14 MRS. BOTHE: They are not included. 

15 M. BROOKS: The Executive Committee didn't 

16 have a view on that. 

17 MRS. BOTHE: No, they didn't, but in the 

18 course of preparing their report on their streamlined 

19 proposals, they would probably come up with one or two 

20 categories of people that ought to be in here and would 

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I might be able to show you. 

MR. BROOKS: If you want it to parallel 
those people who are subject to appointment by the 
governor — 

MR, MILLER: We thought, Mr. Chairman, that 
this oughtn't to be narrowed do;m by trying to spell out 
too much. Now as a practical matter, no legislature is 
going to start out to impeach some small-time 
employee of the state who has committed some petty crime. 
They will wind up in the criminal courts just as sure 
as fate but we ought not to have an argument based on a 
constitutional provision that isn't flexible enough 
so V7hen it is something where the Legislature warrants it - 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me interrupt you. 
Could we solve the problem by saying instead of other 
civil officer, say such other civil officers or such other 
public officers as may be designated by law, leaving 
to the Legislature the designation of the extra classes? 

MR. MILLER: Yes. They could pass a law and 
bring somebody in. 

MRS. FREEDLANDSR: I have one or two things. 



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To repeat what I mentioned in the memorandum, we have 
eliminated almost all the constitutional officers, 
which means they are appointed by the Governor, so 
many of the others, and he is the final one and the 
final arbiter and is responsible, and pressures 
could be put on him rather than thinking in terms of 
impeachment, 

THE CR^IRM^N: Would you accept the change? 

DR. BARD: I would. 

THE CHAlRy^N: Is there any objection? 

DR. BARD: Would you state that again? 

THE CHAIRMAN: And such other civil officers 
or public officers -- I don't care which you use -- 
as may be provided by lav7, designated by law. 

m. SYKES: I don't think you want to 
exempt the adjutant general. 

MR. MILLER: The adjutant general of Maryland 
would be subject to it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I am not so sure he is not 
a c3.vil officer. 

MR. MILLER: He can be tried in a military 



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1 court but a junior officer would be subject to the 

2 military, not to impeachment. 

3 THE CHAIRI^N: Now the next sentence. 

4 DR. BARD: All impeachments shall be tried 

5 by special tribunal of 15 judges appointed by the Senate 

6 from among the judges of the various state courts. We 
spent a good deal of time in connection with who should 

8 try the actual indictment after the indictment had 

9 taken place. For a while V7e thought about the Senate 

10 and thought that wouldn't be good. We hit upon this 

11 tribunal. I am going to ask Congressman Miller to tell 

12 us why you felt so strongly in connection with this 

13 tribunal. We have run it up to 15 now. 

14 MR, MILLER: V7s were embarrassed by the 

15 possibility that we might have a general assembly of one 

16 body. If that was the case, it would be undesirable 

17 to have them initiate an irapeachaient and then try it. 

18 So, starting with that premise — and some 

19 of the states refer to a special court -- suppose the one 

20 nian you V7ant to impeach is a member of that court. So 

21 we thought of a solution. I don't say it is the best 



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1 solution, but that the Legislature could pick from the 

2 panel of judgesX number. We hit on 12 last night when 

3 we were talking, 

4 DR. BARD: Would ten be all right with you? 

5 MR. MILLER: Impeachment is a very unusual 

6 thing, and usually it goes before, even in the early 

7 day of the republic the Senate had 40 members or so most 

8 of the time, that if it was going to be an impeachment, 

9 my thought is that it oughtn't to be just a three or 

10 five-man court. But I don't care what the number is. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry. 

12 MR, GENTRY: I really think we are acting 

13 very hastily in looking at this and trying to patch 

14 together an impeachment section at this late hour v/ith 

15 just this few members present. I look at judges and I 

16 don't know vjhether you mean members of the judiciary or 

17 you mean members of the Senate who are judges v;hen they 

18 are appointed to hear this impeachment case. 

19 DR. BARD: We mean members of the judiciary. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: You could read it just as 

21 well as members of the Senate. V7e are rot asking you to 



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1 adopt the phraseology, 

2 MR. HOFF: Wouldn't it be better to remove 

3 the group of judges to try the impeachment from the 
4r Legislature entirely and have them appointed by the 

5 Supreme Court? 

6 MR. MA.RTINEAU: Why would you have the Supreme 

7 Court do it? 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: We are getting to the time 

9 when we said we would like to adjourn. Let me put up 

10 several questions. It seems to me this last sentence 

11 is susceptible to that. The first is whether the trial 

12 should be by the legislative arm of the Senate or the 

13 House or by the judicial branch. Then we can decide 

14 which court. 

15 How many under the circumstances proposed 

16 would favor trial of an impeachment by the legislative 

17 branch. 

18 MR. MILLER: VJi th two chambers or one? 

19 MR, BROOKS: The trial aspect. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Put it this way. 

21 MR. MILLER: In other words, if you have 



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only one house, I don't think they ought to impeach and 
then try the case. 

DR. BARD: They don't in Nebraska, Mr. 
Chairman. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me get at it this way, 
because we are going to have alternate provisions. 
In the event of a bicameral Legislature, how many prefer 
trial of impeachment by the Legislature? 

MR. BROOKS: Just one observation. Just 
speaking about the bicameral Legislature, it would seem 
that perhaps one of the things that one might consider 
to make impeachment a practical extraordinary remedy is 
to overcome what is apparently the most difficulty 
with impeachment. That is the trial process. 

It is not the impeachment itself which the 
lower house votes but rather the awkwardness of the Senate 
constituted for legislative purposes and being of the 
number it is, actually conducting a judicial trial. They 
are really not selected for that purpose, and they them- 
selves, whenever the occasion has arisen, have discouraged 
impeachment. That is probably the one reason why 



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impeachment is not used in the few cases where it 
might otherwise have been desirable to have it used, 
because they are so apprehensive about trying a case 
in the Senate chambers when they are so ill-prepared 
to handle anything of the kind . 

As a matter of fact, legislative bodies 
don't really have any full-time court reporter or 
stenographer present and don't even keep specific records 
from day to day except on the official record, which is 
just an account of the record, an official transaction. 

So I think even in a bicameral system there 
is a great deal to recommend having a judicial body 
selected to actually conduct the trial. 

THE CHi^IRM^N: Are you ready for the 
question? If there is a bicameral Legislature, how 
many VTOuld favor trial of an impeachment by the legisla- 
tive branch? How many would favor in that situation, 
with a bicameral legislature trial of impeachment by the 
judicial branch? I will put the question again. 

If there is a unicameral legislature, how 
many would favor trial of impeachment by the legislative 



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1 branch? With a unicameral Legislature, how many would 

2 favor trial in that circurastance by the judicial branch? 

3 I On the first there were 12 in favor of 

4 I trial of impeachment with the bicameral legislative 

5 system by the judiciary and two in favor of impeachment 

6 with the judicial branch. 

7 With the unicameral legislature, all 14 

8 favor trial by the judiciary branch. 

9 The next question v;ould arise as to the size 

10 of the court or who would designate the court. Let's 

11 take the latter. How many would favor designation of the 

12 judges to constitute the court by the legislative branch? 

13 MR. GENTRY: What is the alternative? 

14 MRS. FREEDLA^TDER: What if the chief judge 

15 is involved? 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you VTOuld probably 

17 say by the Supreme Court. 

18 MR. MARTIN^EAU: ' I would suggest the Supreme 

19 Court as an alternative. 

20 THE CHAIR^LAN: All right. 

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Court or something, 

MR, HOFF; This is appointment by the 
Supreme Court. 

MR. mRTINEAU: No, the Supreme Court as 
the judicial body to hear the trial. 

MR. MILLER: In that connection, I would 
fear it would be a mistake to give original or any 
particular jurisdiction to the Supreme Court. It is 
all right for them to select the panel or the judges, 
but they would be wearing t\'70 hats. They are the body 
of last resort that anybody that committed irregularities 
would have to go to. If they have initial jurisdiction 
as the Supreme Court, I think it ought to stay. 

MR, CI^GETT: That is not what we are 
talking about. 

THE CHAIR1>IAN: That is an alternate Mr. 
Martineau suggested, I don't know how much effect 
this observation would have, but if you are going to 
depart from custom and confer the trial function on 
the judiciary it might be an adherence in part to custom 
to let the legislative branch designate the judges to 



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1 make up the court. 

2 MR. MARTINEAU: My suggestion would be to 

3 the contrary. I think it would be a dreadful thing to 

4 permit a picking and choosing at the time that you 

5 have this very hotly debated issue, 

6 DR. BARD: We don't mean at the time. The 

7 picking would be at the time, but the structure for 

8 choosing would be set up in advance. 

9 MR. KA-RTINEAU: That would be dangerous. The 

10 best way to have any structure for the trial of such 

11 case as this is to have the body already designated so 

12 they automatically perform the function and not to have 

13 the selection at the time, because you get involved in 

14 questions -- 

15 MR. MILLER: I fully agree, but our thought 

16 was that the Legislature could form the body before 

17 they had a case. They could by law say we will take 

18 all the chief judges or that it v;ould be provided by 

19 law, by the Legislature, as to what their panel would 

20 consist of. 

21 MR, SYKES: It seems to me that this question 



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1 is so closely tied in with the administration of the 

2 courts that it ought to be determined within the court 

3 system who can best be spared to sit for however long 

4 he may have to sit . 

5 You name the Supreme Court as the group to 

6 try it. You disrupt their work. You let the Legislature 

7 name the judges ad hoc, then you undermine the confidence. 

8 If you allow the naming to be done by the Supreme 

9 Court, which would rely upon the chief justice and the 

10 administrative judge of the Superior Court, it seems to 

11 me that you get a judicial type tribunal while at the same 

12 time impairing as little as possible the orderly 

13 performance of the judicial function in the state. 

14 THE CHAIRMi^N: Is there any further discussion? 

15 Mr. MITCHELL: Mr. Chairman, I think that 

16 the Supreme Court should not in cases of impeachment, 

17 particularly of its own members or any of its ovm 

18 members, be the final tribunal, 

19 MR. SYKES: It wouldn't. 

20 ^ MR. MITCHELL: It would be if they designate 

21 the court to hear it. If it is a ten-judge panel selected 



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1 from the judiciary, five named by the legislative branch 

2 and five named by the Supreme Court, it seems to me 
that we would eliminate any problem. It is a novel area. 

4 If the Governor is being impeached or tried on impeach- 

5 ment, it seems to me important enough to establish some 

6 semblance of procedure in the Constitution. 

MRS, BOTHE: There is going to be some 

Q difficulty in the case of a possible impeachment of a 

9 judge if the courts were to remove under the judiciary 

10 article and the other under the impeachment provision. 

11 In the former instance it is the Supreme Court that has 

12 the povjer, and you would be walking into a conflict of 

13 the Legislature telling the Supreme Court what to do. 
JL4 DR. BARD: What would you have there? 

j^g MRS, BOTHE: In the cases of judges being 

16 impeached, you are going to run into all kinds of 

17 difficulty if the Legislature can require the judiciary 

18 to sit in judgm-nt with the removal provisions of the 

19 judiciary. 
2Q -^ MR, MILLER: There is another reason we 

21 considered of giving the Legislature some pick of who the 



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1 judges would be. After all, the most important and 

2 likely kind of trouble would be if it were an impeachment 

3 of the Governor and usually a great many of the members 

4 of the court owe their appointment to the Governor. 

5 We thought it was better to not have them entirely selected 

6 by, to give the Legislature a little chance in selecting 

7 the panel. 

8 THE CR^IRMf^N: Any further discussion? 

9 It seeras to me the alternates suggested are the designa- 

10 tion of the panel of judges by the legislative branch, 

11 designation of the panel of judges by the Supreme Court, 

12 designation of half by the legislative and half by the 

13 Supreme Court, and designation of the Supreme Court 

14 itself as a panel. This is going to give us a lot of 

15 fractions. 
15 ^RS. BOTHE: I suggest in any of these 

17 instances, particularly the last, there would have to 

18 be an exception in the case of a judge who was impeached. 

19 MR, mRTINEAU: You say we have that in 

20 the judiciary article already. 

21 MRS. BOTHE: Thatv.-ould be meaningless as 



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1 applied to judges. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: All those who would favor 

3 designation of the panel by the legislative branch 

4 signify by a shov7 of hands. 

5 DR. E\RD: Can you vote twice? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I think we will have to 

7 take it once. The first will be designation entirely 

'8 by the legislative branch. Second will be designation by 

. 9 the Supreme Court. Third, half by the legislative and 

10 half by the Supreme Court. Fourth, the designation of 

11 the Supreme Court itself. Maybe instead of doing it 

12 the way I suggested, it would be better to do it by an 

13 elimination, in that way to get something more than a 

14 fractional vote, 

3^5 Now, how to work it to get it by elimination. 

16 Let's take up first the question of whether we v7ould 

17 have the automatic designation, that is, designation of 

18 the Supreme Court. That means no appointment, it is 

19 fixed in there. How many would favor that, designation 

20 of the Supreme Court as the body. 

21 MR. BROOKS: One. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Then we would eliminate that. 

2 Your choice is going to be between designation by the 

3 Legislature, designation by the Supreme Court, and half 

4 by each. Again moving in the same way, how many would 

5 favor half by the Legislature and half by the judiciary. 

MR. BROOKS: Seven. 
THE CHAIRMAN: How many would favor designation 

8 either by the legislative or by the judicial branch 

9 but not half by each, one or the other? 

10 MR. HOFF: What? 

11 MR. HARGROVE: Let's take one at a time. 

12 THE CHALRMAN: How many would favor 

13 designation of the entire panel by the Supreme Court? 

14 MR. BROOKS: Six. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: How many would favor designa- 

16 tion of the entire panel by the Legislative? 

17 MR. BROOKS: One. 

18 THE CHAIRi'lAN: It seems to rae what we have 

19 come to is that we are almost an equal division on 

20 des3,gnation either by the Supreme Court or half by each. 

21 MRS. BOTHE: I don't know if anybody has 



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1 commented on the provision of half by each, but it 

2 sounds like a meek compromise. Actually it is a piece 

3 of chaos, and it will be completely unrealistic as 

4 a way to approach it in my opinion. 

5 In the first place, the designation of the 
five or whatever number of judges by the Legislature is 
going to be a football and, second, it violates a principle 

8 in my mind that the Legislature shouldn't be able to 

9 yank judges around and tell them vjhere they are going 

10 to sit and for what reason. There will be no coordination 

11 and cooperation between the Legislature and the Supreme 

12 Court in a case of this sort. 

13 MR. M^RTINEAU: I can't think of anything 

14 the Legislature is less equipped to do than to pick 

15 people to try a particular case. I think the designation 

16 of so many judges by the legislative branch would be, 

17 as Mrs. Bothe said, pure chaos. 

18 MR. MITCHELL: I think the reason for the 

19 compromise is this. The most serious indictment or 

20 impeachment which might be tried would be that of the 

21 Governor, and the second most serious impeachment I can 



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1 see would be of one of the judges because we've got a 

2 framev7ork here whereby the judiciary is designed to 

3 protect us from everybody else, but there is nobody 

4 designed to protect us from the judiciary. 

5 So the purpose of my suggestion of a compromise 
was to have some ultimate device so where even though 

7 it is to be tried by the judiciary, that suggests that 

8 somebody other than just the judiciary has something to 

9 do with this important case where one may be removed 

10 from an important office. 

11 THE CEA.IRMAN: Are you ready for the 

12 question? 

13 DR. BARD: Question. 

14 THE CFiAIPJlAN: The question is now going to 

15 arise, the motion lies on whether the Supreme Court 

16 should designate ^ judges to try the impeachment or 

17 whether half should be designated by the Legislature and 

18 half by the Supreme Court. 

Q^Q All in favor of the designation entirely by 

20 the Supreme Court, signify by a show of hands. 



21 MR. BROOKS: Nine. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: All in favor of half by the 

2 legislative branch and half by the Supreme Court 

3 signify by a show of hands. 

^ MR. BROOKS: Five. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Nine to five in favor of the 

6 designation entirely by the Supreme Court. 

7 Now we have the question of how many judges. 

8 Is there any objection to the last suggestion that the 

9 trial be by a panel of ten judges? 

10 MR. MARTINEAU: I think that is too many. 

11 MH>. CLAGETT: I thought Congressman Miller 

12 agreed to ten. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: I said the last suggestion was 

14 ten. 

15 MR, httLLER: I thought it ought to be more 

16 than a seven or three-man panel, ten or any multiple 

17 of five above that. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: When you get above ten, you 

19 get unwieldy, but in impeachment I think you have a 

20 situation where you justify a little more than the 

21 ordinary. 



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1 MR. SYKES: It doesn't matter if you have 

2 a majority. 

3 MR. MILLER: You have to have three-fif ths. 

4 You have to have six. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sykes. 

MR. SYKES: This is a specially constituted 

tribunal with a final jurisdiction. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: That is right. 

9 MR. SYKES: There is no appeal. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection to a 

11 ten-judge panel? 

12 MR. MARTINEAU: As I said, I think that is 

13 too many. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: How many favor a ten- judge 

15 panel? 

16 MR. BROOKS: Twelve. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: How many favor less than a 

18 ten-judge panel? 

19 MR. BROOKS: One. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Ten to one in favor of the 

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1 that the conviction on impeachment be by three-fifths 

2 of the judges on tiie panel? Does that cover all the 

3 points? 

* DR. BARD: The last sentence, judges shall 

5 be removed from office and may include disqualification 

6 from holding any office of public trust. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: May I suggest an amendment? 

8 Upon conviction, judgment shall be — 

9 DR. BARD: Conviction. 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I ask the Committee to consider 

11 whether there could be soma deprivations of office, 

12 emoluments and so forth. 

13 DR. BARD: Upon conviction, judgraent shall 

14 be removal from office and my include disqualification 

15 from holding any office of public trust. 

16 MRS. BOTHE: They are still entitled to more 

17 pensions? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: As well as deprivation of 

19 pension and other emoluments . 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection to adding that 

21 phrase? 



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MRS. FREEDLANDER: What would be the other 
privileges? What would that be? 

THE CHAIRmN: I don't know. 

MR. HOFF: Is it understood there is no 
appeal, that the judgment is final? 

THE CHAIRKAN: This is final. 
I (The Commission adjourned at 5:15 p.m.) 



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